4 ms·

What is remarkable about Germany is productivity: wealthiness vs. worktime

26 points by wslh 3y ago

mytailorisrich 3y ago
This is a misleading statement. The list shows Germans' work comparatively few hours. Now, if we look at productivity [1], it is good but basically the same as France and behind the US. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_labour_productivity https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_labour_pr...
- vmchale 3y ago
  Things have diverged for the US and Europe pretty significantly post-pandemic. I'd be curious to see updated data.
  - mytailorisrich 3y ago
    Europe has been sinking relatively to the US for a long time. Europe stalled when the global financial crisis hit in 2008 and never recovered. GDP of Eurozone was about the same as the US's in 2008, now the US's is almost double the Eurozone's.
    - medstrom 3y ago
      Could this be accounted for by tech giants in the US?
      - dependsontheq 3y ago
        Basically you have 4 parts: - Tech Giants and concentration of global profits, don't look at revenue look at profits - demographics, Europe is now loosing workers every year - deficit spending, Europe has spent comparatively litte compared to the US - energy and Russia, a much bigger burden in Europe
      - lm28469 3y ago
        Maybe ? (yes) https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EePHe5_U8AAf0Uy.jpg https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EePHe5_U8AAf0Uy.jpg
    - jltsiren 3y ago
      Remember that 2008 was the year when US dollar crashed. €1 was suddenly worth $1.5 or even $1.6. If you look at GDP figures measured in US dollars and use 2008 as the baseline, you get nonsensical results for almost every country. Real GDP growth from the 2008 peak to today has been a bit under 15% for the Eurozone and a bit under 35% for the US. The difference comes mostly from the lack of growth in the early 2010s due to the debt crisis and from the impact of the war in Ukraine.
      - mytailorisrich 3y ago
        The trend is the same and the point is the same: Growth has stalled in Europe for more than a decade (15% in 16 years...) while the US are steaming ahead.
    - lm28469 3y ago
      Partially because most of the free money printed by central banks are directly or indirectly redirected to the US economy, first after 2008 and now since the pandemic
  - nuthje 3y ago
    Which things? Based on what data? You're asking for data to substantiate your statement -- maybe first have the data?
- braiamp 3y ago
  I think your list plus this just informs that more working hours don't translate to higher productivity. If Germany is capable of having comparable labor productivity despite lower working hours, that would mean that the quality of their working hours is higher. Germany is more efficient translating 1 hour of work into GDP.
choeger 3y ago
I think these numbers aren't comparable because they're normalized by employees, not employable population. If you compare a traditional mom-stays-at-home family with a more typical German family they both might work 50-60 hours a week. The difference is that in the former case it's a male burning the midnight fuel in an office or working a side job and in the latter it's two parents working a 20-40 or 30-30 split or so. So I think the difference would look much differently if you'd account for that fact.
- tgkudelski 3y ago
  I think you're absolutely right. See e.g. Japan's position. No way that is accurate for the average worker.
- ktosobcy 3y ago
  Probably also missing "starting point" - if you are already rich you don't have to work as hard to stay ahead...
- amadeuspagel 3y ago
  There are plenty of traditional mom-stays-at-home families in germany, compared to, say, france. What country are you comparing germany to?
- braiamp 3y ago
  > I think the difference would look much differently if you'd account for that fact According to this[1] the sex ratio participation in the labor force is comparable between countries, as in only 5% variance in most cases, of the difference between men/women labor force participation. That was a interesting thesis, but data doesn't seems to favor it. Sex alone isn't able to explain the that Germany seems to have higher/same output than other countries despite working less hours. Quality of working hours doesn't seem to feature a imbalance in the labor pool to explain the difference. [1]: https://stats.oecd.org/Index.aspx?DataSetCode=LFS_SEXAGE_I_R# https://stats.oecd.org/Index.aspx?DataSetCode=LFS_SEXAGE_I_R...
mg 3y ago
This seems to be the source of the data: https://data.oecd.org/emp/hours-worked.htm https://data.oecd.org/emp/hours-worked.htm
- raziel2p 3y ago
  seems odd that Japan isn't higher on that list, considering the reputation it has.
  - braiamp 3y ago
    Probably a definition problem. Your "work" doesn't end in Japan when you clock out.
gizmo 3y ago
* East Germany is poor. Ruhrgebiet is poor. * German manufacturing is struggling because of their reliance on cheap Russian gas. * German car industry is struggling because they can't compete with Chinese imports. * Germany is still in a recession. Germany is not wealthy today because of some remarkable labor productivity (as the tweet suggests). It's because Germany was a manufacturing powerhouse in second half of the 20th century.
w4ffl35 3y ago
Why is a random tweet with no substance on the home page?
rayiner 3y ago
What’s remarkable about the US is that it’s a first world country where people work like they’re in a third world country.
nforgerit 3y ago
German here. I think this rather shows flaws in metrics than a remarkable productivity of Germany. The stats you see are based on: - cheap Russian gas imports - a hidden devaluation of the Euro within the Euro-zone - a gigantic market for unskilled/cheap labor they've set up 20ys ago - a great set of "hidden champions" that had a flourishing market in uprising China for the decade between 2010-2020 - the "Made in Germany" seal and - network effects of all of the above I doubt the German workers were/are especially efficient and have yet to see one of the local companies to use software as a gain of productivity rather than a byproduct.
- jijijijij 3y ago
  > - a gigantic market for unskilled/cheap labor they've set up 20ys ago You need first hand experiences of the Hartz-IV system to really grasp the extent of the above statement. It's set up to force a certain group of people (low social status) to work any job and then subsidizes their low wages just enough to keep their living costs covered - still dependent on, financially surveilled and micromanaged* by the state. Effectively preventing social mobility. Indefinitely. The German unemployment "social net" is really a giant subsidy scheme for the 1% (here, industry and landlords). At the same time, those 1% are fabricating the image of anti-social lazy tax-money leeches, as populist rhetoric to erode dignity of those hooked in the system even further, to keep minimum wage worker supply high. It's all wiiiicked corrupt. "Rich" Germany has one of the largest low-wage sectors in Europe, with more than 20% of all employed working about minimum wage. For comparison, in France that's less than 9%. https://www.destatis.de/Europa/DE/Thema/Bevoelkerung-Arbeit-Soziales/Arbeitsmarkt/Qualitaet-der-Arbeit/_dimension-2/niedriglohnquote.html https://www.destatis.de/Europa/DE/Thema/Bevoelkerung-Arbeit-... * You have to reveal all your finances, all gifts or other income are absorbed, you cannot keep substantial financial reserves, you cannot freely travel, or spend/invest your money as you please. Some de facto normal, but "irregular" living costs (like rent) may only be tolerated, so there is a high chance the state has something to hold against you to enforce cooperation.
letmeinhere 3y ago
Here's a bubble chart plotting this phenomenon: https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/annual-working-hours-vs-gdp-per-capita-pwt?time=2019..latest https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/annual-working-hours-vs-g... Germany is close to the pareto frontier, whereas Ireland and Norway are on it. Would be nice to see the same for median income, since of course much of the productivity of workers is captured by others.
mo_42 3y ago
I think the numbers we need here are GDPs adjusted for PPP per capita and per hour worked. Unfortunately, I didn't find any statistic quickly. Some years ago, I looked at such numbers and some of the Scandinavian countries were doing very good. The Netherlands, France, and Germany were also pretty good.

26 points by wslh 3y ago

This is a misleading statement. The list shows Germans' work comparatively few hours. Now, if we look at productivity [1], it is good but basically the same as France and behind the US. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_labour_productivity https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_labour_pr...

vmchale 3y ago
Things have diverged for the US and Europe pretty significantly post-pandemic. I'd be curious to see updated data.
- mytailorisrich 3y ago
  Europe has been sinking relatively to the US for a long time. Europe stalled when the global financial crisis hit in 2008 and never recovered. GDP of Eurozone was about the same as the US's in 2008, now the US's is almost double the Eurozone's.
  - medstrom 3y ago
    Could this be accounted for by tech giants in the US?
    - dependsontheq 3y ago
      Basically you have 4 parts: - Tech Giants and concentration of global profits, don't look at revenue look at profits - demographics, Europe is now loosing workers every year - deficit spending, Europe has spent comparatively litte compared to the US - energy and Russia, a much bigger burden in Europe
    - lm28469 3y ago
      Maybe ? (yes) https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EePHe5_U8AAf0Uy.jpg https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EePHe5_U8AAf0Uy.jpg
  - jltsiren 3y ago
    Remember that 2008 was the year when US dollar crashed. €1 was suddenly worth $1.5 or even $1.6. If you look at GDP figures measured in US dollars and use 2008 as the baseline, you get nonsensical results for almost every country. Real GDP growth from the 2008 peak to today has been a bit under 15% for the Eurozone and a bit under 35% for the US. The difference comes mostly from the lack of growth in the early 2010s due to the debt crisis and from the impact of the war in Ukraine.
    - mytailorisrich 3y ago
      The trend is the same and the point is the same: Growth has stalled in Europe for more than a decade (15% in 16 years...) while the US are steaming ahead.
  - lm28469 3y ago
    Partially because most of the free money printed by central banks are directly or indirectly redirected to the US economy, first after 2008 and now since the pandemic
- nuthje 3y ago
  Which things? Based on what data? You're asking for data to substantiate your statement -- maybe first have the data?
braiamp 3y ago
I think your list plus this just informs that more working hours don't translate to higher productivity. If Germany is capable of having comparable labor productivity despite lower working hours, that would mean that the quality of their working hours is higher. Germany is more efficient translating 1 hour of work into GDP.

choeger 3y ago

I think these numbers aren't comparable because they're normalized by employees, not employable population. If you compare a traditional mom-stays-at-home family with a more typical German family they both might work 50-60 hours a week. The difference is that in the former case it's a male burning the midnight fuel in an office or working a side job and in the latter it's two parents working a 20-40 or 30-30 split or so. So I think the difference would look much differently if you'd account for that fact.

tgkudelski 3y ago
I think you're absolutely right. See e.g. Japan's position. No way that is accurate for the average worker.
ktosobcy 3y ago
Probably also missing "starting point" - if you are already rich you don't have to work as hard to stay ahead...
amadeuspagel 3y ago
There are plenty of traditional mom-stays-at-home families in germany, compared to, say, france. What country are you comparing germany to?
braiamp 3y ago
> I think the difference would look much differently if you'd account for that fact According to this[1] the sex ratio participation in the labor force is comparable between countries, as in only 5% variance in most cases, of the difference between men/women labor force participation. That was a interesting thesis, but data doesn't seems to favor it. Sex alone isn't able to explain the that Germany seems to have higher/same output than other countries despite working less hours. Quality of working hours doesn't seem to feature a imbalance in the labor pool to explain the difference. [1]: https://stats.oecd.org/Index.aspx?DataSetCode=LFS_SEXAGE_I_R# https://stats.oecd.org/Index.aspx?DataSetCode=LFS_SEXAGE_I_R...

mg 3y ago

This seems to be the source of the data: https://data.oecd.org/emp/hours-worked.htm https://data.oecd.org/emp/hours-worked.htm

raziel2p 3y ago
seems odd that Japan isn't higher on that list, considering the reputation it has.
- braiamp 3y ago
  Probably a definition problem. Your "work" doesn't end in Japan when you clock out.

gizmo 3y ago

* East Germany is poor. Ruhrgebiet is poor. * German manufacturing is struggling because of their reliance on cheap Russian gas. * German car industry is struggling because they can't compete with Chinese imports. * Germany is still in a recession. Germany is not wealthy today because of some remarkable labor productivity (as the tweet suggests). It's because Germany was a manufacturing powerhouse in second half of the 20th century.

w4ffl35 3y ago

Why is a random tweet with no substance on the home page?

rayiner 3y ago

What’s remarkable about the US is that it’s a first world country where people work like they’re in a third world country.

nforgerit 3y ago

German here. I think this rather shows flaws in metrics than a remarkable productivity of Germany. The stats you see are based on: - cheap Russian gas imports - a hidden devaluation of the Euro within the Euro-zone - a gigantic market for unskilled/cheap labor they've set up 20ys ago - a great set of "hidden champions" that had a flourishing market in uprising China for the decade between 2010-2020 - the "Made in Germany" seal and - network effects of all of the above I doubt the German workers were/are especially efficient and have yet to see one of the local companies to use software as a gain of productivity rather than a byproduct.

jijijijij 3y ago
> - a gigantic market for unskilled/cheap labor they've set up 20ys ago You need first hand experiences of the Hartz-IV system to really grasp the extent of the above statement. It's set up to force a certain group of people (low social status) to work any job and then subsidizes their low wages just enough to keep their living costs covered - still dependent on, financially surveilled and micromanaged* by the state. Effectively preventing social mobility. Indefinitely. The German unemployment "social net" is really a giant subsidy scheme for the 1% (here, industry and landlords). At the same time, those 1% are fabricating the image of anti-social lazy tax-money leeches, as populist rhetoric to erode dignity of those hooked in the system even further, to keep minimum wage worker supply high. It's all wiiiicked corrupt. "Rich" Germany has one of the largest low-wage sectors in Europe, with more than 20% of all employed working about minimum wage. For comparison, in France that's less than 9%. https://www.destatis.de/Europa/DE/Thema/Bevoelkerung-Arbeit-Soziales/Arbeitsmarkt/Qualitaet-der-Arbeit/_dimension-2/niedriglohnquote.html https://www.destatis.de/Europa/DE/Thema/Bevoelkerung-Arbeit-... * You have to reveal all your finances, all gifts or other income are absorbed, you cannot keep substantial financial reserves, you cannot freely travel, or spend/invest your money as you please. Some de facto normal, but "irregular" living costs (like rent) may only be tolerated, so there is a high chance the state has something to hold against you to enforce cooperation.

letmeinhere 3y ago

Here's a bubble chart plotting this phenomenon: https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/annual-working-hours-vs-gdp-per-capita-pwt?time=2019..latest https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/annual-working-hours-vs-g... Germany is close to the pareto frontier, whereas Ireland and Norway are on it. Would be nice to see the same for median income, since of course much of the productivity of workers is captured by others.

mo_42 3y ago

I think the numbers we need here are GDPs adjusted for PPP per capita and per hour worked. Unfortunately, I didn't find any statistic quickly. Some years ago, I looked at such numbers and some of the Scandinavian countries were doing very good. The Netherlands, France, and Germany were also pretty good.