3 ms·

"10x more grad students" != Independent exploration. Limited opportunities means limited bandwidth to fail, this means a lot more incremental and conservative r

"10x more grad students" != Independent exploration. Limited opportunities means limited bandwidth to fail, this means a lot more incremental and conservative research. There is definitely a lot less research freedom and a lot more conformity and race to publications. I can not disagree more with you on this.

danaris 3y ago
You appear to be conflating a few different things here. The primary thesis of your original post appears to be universities' shift toward getting people ready for careers that require advanced knowledge (and away from pure learning/research). That has very little to do with research freedom and the race to publications. Those are both real phenomena, but a) it is arguable whether the former is actually a problem, and b) they are only very loosely connected. The number of grad students being trained, by contrast, is much more likely to be related to the degree to which universities still value and practice learning for learning's sake—although I think it is somewhat less so than vkou wished to imply, since there are, in fact, plenty of non-academic jobs that do require or prefer a Masters or even a PhD.
- KuriousCat 3y ago
  Your premise is that if universities are training more grad students they are valuing independent exploration and encouraging learning for the sake of learning. I don't think it is true. If I am training 100 people to think alike, it is not valuing independent research and exploration. It is herding. Current grad students are "trained" to align with interests of few research labs/few personalities with lot less eccentricity and originality.
  - danaris 3y ago
    I think you may be mixing me up with vkou...? My premise is, purely and simply, that you are conflating multiple things that are not the same.
    - KuriousCat 3y ago
      The point I was trying to make is this, the fear driven conformal behavioral training or we can even call it draining in this case during the formative years is making many people lean towards their zombie mode and is killing their critical questioning faculty. Even simple decisions like what phone I would use are shaped by the green tick marks and peer perception.
vkou 3y ago
Okay, everything you say is true, but that's not something under the control of universities. Change everything about the research grant system, and increase funding for it by 10x, and it'll address your concerns, and universities will happily make even more grad students. They aren't currently the bottleneck, because they aren't the sources of research funding - they are just a landlord (with reasonably okay terms) for the research lab that spends that funding.
- KuriousCat 3y ago
  You seem to characterize universities as passive players. Who are the folks sitting on the grant committees? Who shaped the current system? Universities are there to shape societies and to lead in the first place. Not to seek a perfect system to play a passive role.

danaris 3y ago

You appear to be conflating a few different things here. The primary thesis of your original post appears to be universities' shift toward getting people ready for careers that require advanced knowledge (and away from pure learning/research). That has very little to do with research freedom and the race to publications. Those are both real phenomena, but a) it is arguable whether the former is actually a problem, and b) they are only very loosely connected. The number of grad students being trained, by contrast, is much more likely to be related to the degree to which universities still value and practice learning for learning's sake—although I think it is somewhat less so than vkou wished to imply, since there are, in fact, plenty of non-academic jobs that do require or prefer a Masters or even a PhD.

KuriousCat 3y ago
Your premise is that if universities are training more grad students they are valuing independent exploration and encouraging learning for the sake of learning. I don't think it is true. If I am training 100 people to think alike, it is not valuing independent research and exploration. It is herding. Current grad students are "trained" to align with interests of few research labs/few personalities with lot less eccentricity and originality.
- danaris 3y ago
  I think you may be mixing me up with vkou...? My premise is, purely and simply, that you are conflating multiple things that are not the same.
  - KuriousCat 3y ago
    The point I was trying to make is this, the fear driven conformal behavioral training or we can even call it draining in this case during the formative years is making many people lean towards their zombie mode and is killing their critical questioning faculty. Even simple decisions like what phone I would use are shaped by the green tick marks and peer perception.

vkou 3y ago

Okay, everything you say is true, but that's not something under the control of universities. Change everything about the research grant system, and increase funding for it by 10x, and it'll address your concerns, and universities will happily make even more grad students. They aren't currently the bottleneck, because they aren't the sources of research funding - they are just a landlord (with reasonably okay terms) for the research lab that spends that funding.

KuriousCat 3y ago
You seem to characterize universities as passive players. Who are the folks sitting on the grant committees? Who shaped the current system? Universities are there to shape societies and to lead in the first place. Not to seek a perfect system to play a passive role.