5 ms·

> I'm referring to the fact the eBPF will be available across Microsoft, Apple, and Linux, and there is no other technology that will be able to offer that. I

by bch 3y ago

> I'm referring to the fact the eBPF will be available across Microsoft, Apple, and Linux, and there is no other technology that will be able to offer that. I don’t know if there’s some qualification I’m missing in your statement, but does this not count? https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-hardware/drivers/devtest/dtrace https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-hardware/drivers/d... https://opensource.apple.com/source/dtrace/ https://opensource.apple.com/source/dtrace/ https://docs.freebsd.org/en/books/handbook/dtrace/ https://docs.freebsd.org/en/books/handbook/dtrace/ https://github.com/dtrace4linux/linux https://github.com/dtrace4linux/linux

ta8645 3y ago
> https://github.com/dtrace4linux/linux https://github.com/dtrace4linux/linux Last commit, 5 years ago. While you're correct to say that DTrace is available on Linux, it is so restricted as to be much less capable than eBPF. It is the reason it will become a footnote, and eBPF will become ubiquitous.
- bcantrill 3y ago
  It may become a footnote on Linux, but Linux isn't the only system out there -- and DTrace remains alive and well in many systems (not least in its reference implementation in illumos[0]). [0] https://github.com/illumos/illumos-gate https://github.com/illumos/illumos-gate
  - ta8645 3y ago
    You're discounting the network effects. Also, eBPF provides many more capabilities beyond dTrace, and it will be ubiquitous across all OS, without having to make the exception for Linux. Anyone targeting full cross-platform capabilities will be better served by eBPF. The unfortunate history that crippled dTrace on Linux, will lead to its ultimate sidelining.
    - bcantrill 3y ago
      I don't really know what you mean by network effects, but perhaps we're just talking about two different things: you are looking at eBPF as a substrate to deliver arbitrary software (?!) whereas I view DTrace exclusively as a diagnostic tool. As to their relative capabilities: its other potential advantages aside, eBPF (and the tooling built upon it like bcc) lacks much of the functionality and polish of DTrace when attempting to accurately instrument the system. Its lack of robustness makes even basic instrumentation challenging,[0] let alone the richer (and admittedly, more esoteric) features of DTrace that it's missing entirely. [0] https://oxide-and-friends.transistor.fm/episodes/mr-nagles-wild-ride https://oxide-and-friends.transistor.fm/episodes/mr-nagles-w...
      - ta8645 3y ago
        You can argue about the relative beauty and polish of the tech, but just as Git won against more polished alternatives, so too will eBPF displace others because of its platform reach. eBPF combines amazing tech, with a platform reach that is impossible for dTrace to provide. It's this unique combination that will capture the mindshare necessary to relegate others to the sidelines. Time will tell who is right. Good luck.

by bch 3y ago

ta8645 3y ago

> https://github.com/dtrace4linux/linux https://github.com/dtrace4linux/linux Last commit, 5 years ago. While you're correct to say that DTrace is available on Linux, it is so restricted as to be much less capable than eBPF. It is the reason it will become a footnote, and eBPF will become ubiquitous.

bcantrill 3y ago
It may become a footnote on Linux, but Linux isn't the only system out there -- and DTrace remains alive and well in many systems (not least in its reference implementation in illumos[0]). [0] https://github.com/illumos/illumos-gate https://github.com/illumos/illumos-gate
- ta8645 3y ago
  You're discounting the network effects. Also, eBPF provides many more capabilities beyond dTrace, and it will be ubiquitous across all OS, without having to make the exception for Linux. Anyone targeting full cross-platform capabilities will be better served by eBPF. The unfortunate history that crippled dTrace on Linux, will lead to its ultimate sidelining.
  - bcantrill 3y ago
    I don't really know what you mean by network effects, but perhaps we're just talking about two different things: you are looking at eBPF as a substrate to deliver arbitrary software (?!) whereas I view DTrace exclusively as a diagnostic tool. As to their relative capabilities: its other potential advantages aside, eBPF (and the tooling built upon it like bcc) lacks much of the functionality and polish of DTrace when attempting to accurately instrument the system. Its lack of robustness makes even basic instrumentation challenging,[0] let alone the richer (and admittedly, more esoteric) features of DTrace that it's missing entirely. [0] https://oxide-and-friends.transistor.fm/episodes/mr-nagles-wild-ride https://oxide-and-friends.transistor.fm/episodes/mr-nagles-w...
    - ta8645 3y ago
      You can argue about the relative beauty and polish of the tech, but just as Git won against more polished alternatives, so too will eBPF displace others because of its platform reach. eBPF combines amazing tech, with a platform reach that is impossible for dTrace to provide. It's this unique combination that will capture the mindshare necessary to relegate others to the sidelines. Time will tell who is right. Good luck.