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As far as I'm aware though, disarming someone with a knife is relatively easy if you're highly trained and armoured, and they are literally "coming at you," ie.

As far as I'm aware though, disarming someone with a knife is relatively easy if you're highly trained and armoured, and they are literally "coming at you," ie. you have plenty of notice. It all comes down to the value of human life: how much personal effort and risk are you willing to go to in order to protect a murderous criminal? Should you chance a little light judo to make him drop the blade? Or should you just put a cap through his eye socket and go to lunch? I know which category I'm more willing to be policed by.

tluyben2 14y ago
Indeed; all police are trained in martial arts of some sort; disarming someone with a knife is usually easy. If you have been trained, you can see if your assailant is trained as well by how he holds the knife and the way he looks, moves and runs/walks. I'm talking knife here, not tree branch. Then you have (again, you are trained) the option to shoot him in the head, heart, stomach all of which are usually quite lethal OR you can hit the leg, knee, shoulder, arm. Why use LETHAL force? Actually, in almost all cases of police violence in the US; why did they use lethal force and not just cap someone's knee? Unless the person is on PCP (or a zombie; note that in Resident Evil when the first zombies come in, they first shoot in the knee; it's obvious right? Basic training?) (which, tiring to say, you can see if you are trained) she/he will drop their weapon (even guns mind you) if their knee is capped or shoulder is pulverized...
- peteretep 14y ago
  > disarming someone with a knife is usually easy > you have the option to shoot him in the head, heart, stomach all of which are usually quite lethal OR you can hit the leg, knee, shoulder, arm You've been reading too much Martial Arts Wow literature. Taking a knife off someone is highly likely to get you cut, badly. Police don't aim for 'non lethal' parts of the body, because if you're using the gun, your life is being threatened, and you are using deadly force already - trying to hit anything other than the torso under these conditions (especially if the target is moving, or any real distance away) while your heart is pounding and your hands are shaking is very very difficult.
  - tluyben2 14y ago
    Yeah that's the whole point and problem; seems US police (and other gun bearers) seems to think their lives are threatened far too easily. That's the only stories we hear in the EU; obviously there will be plenty of cases were deadly force is needed. But if you feel your life is being threatened by unarmed people running away from a scene... ... And the martial arts wow depends on the case; I have only been in knife fights were the knife was pulled by a drunk guy. No problem taking that away. I would imagine this is often the case; depending on the drug it would not be hard, especially with a baton in hand. No guns needed. The stories I read here today, in the article and generally in the EU press about US shootings just show shoddy police work though. But that's because it's press; they don't really want to publish things that go well; only things that go bad. > trying to hit anything other than the torso under these conditions (especially if the target is moving, or any real distance away) while your heart is pounding and your hands are shaking is very very difficult. Real distance away? Talking about someone coming at you with a knife in hand... Moving => yes but towards you and I would like to bet most (by far) people will run at you in a straight line when attacking. But yes, of course, if you fear for your or someone else's life, you would shoot to kill. My whole point is that in the US it seems (i'm being careful here not to go with all public opinion :) police is far to trigger happy also in cases were it makes no sense at all. Edit: also if you read 'ajuc' his comment about Poland (and it's the same in NL and DE and probably the rest of EU); you have to shoot at the legs first. It's how we are raised to think and when there are police shootings here often (mostly) people are just wounded.
- hef19898 14y ago
  Yes and no (for ther disarming part). First i know some cops and their martial arts skills, sometimes they are not very high. Second, there are martial arts skills and martial arts skills. the main difference is if you train for competition, technique only or combat. And combat is really rare. And as it was mentioned before, knifes are really dangerous in cklose combat, not so much on your arms, but certainly on your body. Plus, vanila ballistic vest offer close to no protection against them.
  - tluyben2 14y ago
    Is it not possible to make a ballistic vest do both at once? If not, why not? I'm curious. And if they can, why don't they wear them? Seems knives are a lot easier to get for any age?
    - jarek 14y ago
      I recall this being something to do with the physics involved. Modern ballistic vests don't stop or reflect bullets like a stereotypical Iron Man armour, they're special fabric designed specifically to absorb the energy from fast-moving small things and slow them down to zero. A thrust knife moves a lot slower than a bullet and has a different shape (wider, flatter, etc) so apparently it can go through standard vests without much trouble. It's difficult to create practical vests that can stop both.
    - hef19898 14y ago
      AFAIK the main reason is weight. The standard vests are a fabric, like a shirt (sorry for the over simplification). As mentioned in the other response these fabrics slow a bullet down to zero. It can still break your ribs, so. On the other hand, a knife cuts through these fabrics as it will cut through a shirt. A solution is to put "plates" in the vests at critical points, they also offer additional ballistic protection. Downside is these plates aren't flexible (conformt is an issue if have to wear your vest all day at 30° C in summer) and they become heavier and more bulky. But again, that's what if been told by some german cops and I'm no expert in that.
- bdunbar 14y ago
  Then you have (again, you are trained) the option to shoot him in the head, heart, stomach all of which are usually quite lethal OR you can hit the leg, knee, shoulder, arm. Why use LETHAL force? Because a gun, by definition, is lethal force. Because shooting to wound is a fancy way of saying 'shoot to miss'. Look: you train to shoot at center mass because that's what it takes to kill a person. If you don't intend to kill that person, then you have no business drawing a weapon.
  - tluyben2 14y ago
    Yeah, my point exactly. But if you did draw, you can still shoot at the legs (as is normal in the EU for police).
    - bdunbar 14y ago
      I don't know for EU police. I know what is practical, what works. With a pistol, shooting at anything but center mass is foolish.
      - DominikR 14y ago
        Shooting to kill is under no circumstance allowed in Germany or Austria (for police and civilians) and it doesn't matter if it is more practical to aim for center mass and fire 10 times, because it's law over here. If an aspiring police officer is not willing to submit to those rules, he or she will have to look for a different job. It's easy for you to say that this is foolish, but in the end much less tragedies occur, because neither the offender, nor the police officer will feel like their lives are threatened in those heated situations. They'll catch the criminal anyways later on.
        Locke1689 14y ago
        No it's not. 12 of Germany's 16 states allow officers to shoot to kill to prevent loss of life. Good to know most German or Austrian citizens are about as ignorant of German law as American citizens are of ours. I do wonder where you got that idea, though. You can post the document, I speak German.
- harshreality 14y ago
  You overestimate the chance of successfully disarming someone with a knife without receiving serious wounds. You also overestimate the martial arts training most cops receive. If they're interested in martial arts on their own, they might be very good. Otherwise, a few months of training at any martial arts style that teaches immediately practical aspects like holds, joint locks, grappling, etc. will teach more than what cops know. It's not practical. Police procedure is designed to prevent officers from ever needing to get into serious hand to hand fights with criminals. Most cops do not shoot violent criminals in the knees or shoulders because they are not that accurate. In the Diallo shooting [1], 4 NYC police officers hit Diallo 19 times out of 41 rounds fired. If a cop is a good shot, and is not under pressure, he or she can hit a suspect's knee. Most shootings occur under high pressure, and most cops are not good shots. Most cops qualify periodically as required under police regulations and that's all the firearms training they care about. [1] http://topics.nytimes.com/topics/reference/timestopics/people/d/amadou_diallo/index.html http://topics.nytimes.com/topics/reference/timestopics/peopl...
omegant 14y ago
Below 10yards a knife can be more dangerous than a gun. There is a video of a mentally ill brasilian with a machete sorrounded by 4 armed officers. He goes bersech and kills one or two and wounds the others, all without recieving a shot. Even if you shot someone but is not an incapacitating shot, it is possible that the attacker could inflict severe injuries on the cop. This is the reason of the huge quantities of shots to a single suspect in USA (better sorry than dead is the way they think about it). For example one famous case in florida, where an injured ( by a shot fired by an officer) suspect was able to kill 3 or 4 FBI agents( they changed the caliber from 9mm to .40 after this incident to increase the stopping power). So now they are encouraged to shot till the suspect doesn't move any more (15 shots or more). Here in Spain is very extrange for police to have to shoot. But I don't think is only due to the restrictions of the police( very similar to the german ones). I think that the felons know that even if they are arrested and condemned, they are not going to spend a long time in prison (prison sentences are not very long, some time they seem a joke), and therefore it doesn't make sense ot worsen the charges by atacking or murdering someone. Also jails in Spain have a very open system of benefits and permits for good behaviour. IMHO police violence is reactive to crime violence, which is reactive to punishment toughtness. Is a growing violence spiral that can be stoped if there is a change in the way punishment is understood ( after all you must grand an honorable exit even to your worst enemy).
Zak 14y ago
I have some knowledge of this I don't entirely agree. I once wanted to be a police officer, and went through police training in Florida. I also currently study Aikido and Kali (Eskrima). I have practiced many knife disarm techniques and some defensive/offensive knife use. Taking a knife from someone who is actively trying to hurt or kill you with it and has even minimal training in how to use it for that purpose is extremely difficult. You will almost certainly be cut, and a cut to the arm can disable your hand. A baton improves the odds, but it's still very risky. Most police body armor does not provide significant protection from knives, nor does it cover the arms, legs or neck, which are excellent targets for a knife. Disarming or disabling a knife-wielding attacker requires tools that can be used from a long distance. Pepper spray and Tasers are good less-lethal options, especially when multiple officers are present. These should be tried in most situations before going to a firearm, but if a suspect charges an officer with a knife there isn't time to wait and see. The range of a Taser happens to be the same (21 feet) as the distance most people can cover in the amount of time it takes for most officers to draw and fire a pistol. If the Taser fails or misses, it doesn't hold a second shot and can't be reloaded quickly. Most of the time, I'd want the officer to risk trying the Taser, but it's not reasonable to ask someone to go up against a knife unarmed.
- JonnieCache 14y ago
  I agree, if it's an instant decision to avoid a knife in the ribs then nobody could think ill of someone for instinctively protecting their life. It's more things like this I'm talking about: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fpjFsmTDWuQ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fpjFsmTDWuQ It's obviously an extreme example but it illustrates the point, as does that business on the white house lawn. (Also I'd contend that in practice most knife-wielding assailants, far from being even moderately trained, are probably clueless and scared.)
  - harshreality 14y ago
    Still, you don't want to bet your life that the assailant doesn't know how to wield a knife. I don't agree with shooting anyone who is brandishing a knife, but trying to disarm them is a horrible idea as well. As others have mentioned, using beanbag guns or a taser or tear gas or rubber bullets or just about any less-lethal option (with other officers ready to shoot if the assailant charges) is the best solution.

tluyben2 14y ago

Indeed; all police are trained in martial arts of some sort; disarming someone with a knife is usually easy. If you have been trained, you can see if your assailant is trained as well by how he holds the knife and the way he looks, moves and runs/walks. I'm talking knife here, not tree branch. Then you have (again, you are trained) the option to shoot him in the head, heart, stomach all of which are usually quite lethal OR you can hit the leg, knee, shoulder, arm. Why use LETHAL force? Actually, in almost all cases of police violence in the US; why did they use lethal force and not just cap someone's knee? Unless the person is on PCP (or a zombie; note that in Resident Evil when the first zombies come in, they first shoot in the knee; it's obvious right? Basic training?) (which, tiring to say, you can see if you are trained) she/he will drop their weapon (even guns mind you) if their knee is capped or shoulder is pulverized...

peteretep 14y ago
> disarming someone with a knife is usually easy > you have the option to shoot him in the head, heart, stomach all of which are usually quite lethal OR you can hit the leg, knee, shoulder, arm You've been reading too much Martial Arts Wow literature. Taking a knife off someone is highly likely to get you cut, badly. Police don't aim for 'non lethal' parts of the body, because if you're using the gun, your life is being threatened, and you are using deadly force already - trying to hit anything other than the torso under these conditions (especially if the target is moving, or any real distance away) while your heart is pounding and your hands are shaking is very very difficult.
- tluyben2 14y ago
  Yeah that's the whole point and problem; seems US police (and other gun bearers) seems to think their lives are threatened far too easily. That's the only stories we hear in the EU; obviously there will be plenty of cases were deadly force is needed. But if you feel your life is being threatened by unarmed people running away from a scene... ... And the martial arts wow depends on the case; I have only been in knife fights were the knife was pulled by a drunk guy. No problem taking that away. I would imagine this is often the case; depending on the drug it would not be hard, especially with a baton in hand. No guns needed. The stories I read here today, in the article and generally in the EU press about US shootings just show shoddy police work though. But that's because it's press; they don't really want to publish things that go well; only things that go bad. > trying to hit anything other than the torso under these conditions (especially if the target is moving, or any real distance away) while your heart is pounding and your hands are shaking is very very difficult. Real distance away? Talking about someone coming at you with a knife in hand... Moving => yes but towards you and I would like to bet most (by far) people will run at you in a straight line when attacking. But yes, of course, if you fear for your or someone else's life, you would shoot to kill. My whole point is that in the US it seems (i'm being careful here not to go with all public opinion :) police is far to trigger happy also in cases were it makes no sense at all. Edit: also if you read 'ajuc' his comment about Poland (and it's the same in NL and DE and probably the rest of EU); you have to shoot at the legs first. It's how we are raised to think and when there are police shootings here often (mostly) people are just wounded.
hef19898 14y ago
Yes and no (for ther disarming part). First i know some cops and their martial arts skills, sometimes they are not very high. Second, there are martial arts skills and martial arts skills. the main difference is if you train for competition, technique only or combat. And combat is really rare. And as it was mentioned before, knifes are really dangerous in cklose combat, not so much on your arms, but certainly on your body. Plus, vanila ballistic vest offer close to no protection against them.
- tluyben2 14y ago
  Is it not possible to make a ballistic vest do both at once? If not, why not? I'm curious. And if they can, why don't they wear them? Seems knives are a lot easier to get for any age?
  - jarek 14y ago
    I recall this being something to do with the physics involved. Modern ballistic vests don't stop or reflect bullets like a stereotypical Iron Man armour, they're special fabric designed specifically to absorb the energy from fast-moving small things and slow them down to zero. A thrust knife moves a lot slower than a bullet and has a different shape (wider, flatter, etc) so apparently it can go through standard vests without much trouble. It's difficult to create practical vests that can stop both.
  - hef19898 14y ago
    AFAIK the main reason is weight. The standard vests are a fabric, like a shirt (sorry for the over simplification). As mentioned in the other response these fabrics slow a bullet down to zero. It can still break your ribs, so. On the other hand, a knife cuts through these fabrics as it will cut through a shirt. A solution is to put "plates" in the vests at critical points, they also offer additional ballistic protection. Downside is these plates aren't flexible (conformt is an issue if have to wear your vest all day at 30° C in summer) and they become heavier and more bulky. But again, that's what if been told by some german cops and I'm no expert in that.
bdunbar 14y ago
Then you have (again, you are trained) the option to shoot him in the head, heart, stomach all of which are usually quite lethal OR you can hit the leg, knee, shoulder, arm. Why use LETHAL force? Because a gun, by definition, is lethal force. Because shooting to wound is a fancy way of saying 'shoot to miss'. Look: you train to shoot at center mass because that's what it takes to kill a person. If you don't intend to kill that person, then you have no business drawing a weapon.
- tluyben2 14y ago
  Yeah, my point exactly. But if you did draw, you can still shoot at the legs (as is normal in the EU for police).
  - bdunbar 14y ago
    I don't know for EU police. I know what is practical, what works. With a pistol, shooting at anything but center mass is foolish.
    - DominikR 14y ago
      Shooting to kill is under no circumstance allowed in Germany or Austria (for police and civilians) and it doesn't matter if it is more practical to aim for center mass and fire 10 times, because it's law over here. If an aspiring police officer is not willing to submit to those rules, he or she will have to look for a different job. It's easy for you to say that this is foolish, but in the end much less tragedies occur, because neither the offender, nor the police officer will feel like their lives are threatened in those heated situations. They'll catch the criminal anyways later on.
      - Locke1689 14y ago
        No it's not. 12 of Germany's 16 states allow officers to shoot to kill to prevent loss of life. Good to know most German or Austrian citizens are about as ignorant of German law as American citizens are of ours. I do wonder where you got that idea, though. You can post the document, I speak German.
harshreality 14y ago
You overestimate the chance of successfully disarming someone with a knife without receiving serious wounds. You also overestimate the martial arts training most cops receive. If they're interested in martial arts on their own, they might be very good. Otherwise, a few months of training at any martial arts style that teaches immediately practical aspects like holds, joint locks, grappling, etc. will teach more than what cops know. It's not practical. Police procedure is designed to prevent officers from ever needing to get into serious hand to hand fights with criminals. Most cops do not shoot violent criminals in the knees or shoulders because they are not that accurate. In the Diallo shooting [1], 4 NYC police officers hit Diallo 19 times out of 41 rounds fired. If a cop is a good shot, and is not under pressure, he or she can hit a suspect's knee. Most shootings occur under high pressure, and most cops are not good shots. Most cops qualify periodically as required under police regulations and that's all the firearms training they care about. [1] http://topics.nytimes.com/topics/reference/timestopics/people/d/amadou_diallo/index.html http://topics.nytimes.com/topics/reference/timestopics/peopl...

omegant 14y ago

Below 10yards a knife can be more dangerous than a gun. There is a video of a mentally ill brasilian with a machete sorrounded by 4 armed officers. He goes bersech and kills one or two and wounds the others, all without recieving a shot. Even if you shot someone but is not an incapacitating shot, it is possible that the attacker could inflict severe injuries on the cop. This is the reason of the huge quantities of shots to a single suspect in USA (better sorry than dead is the way they think about it). For example one famous case in florida, where an injured ( by a shot fired by an officer) suspect was able to kill 3 or 4 FBI agents( they changed the caliber from 9mm to .40 after this incident to increase the stopping power). So now they are encouraged to shot till the suspect doesn't move any more (15 shots or more). Here in Spain is very extrange for police to have to shoot. But I don't think is only due to the restrictions of the police( very similar to the german ones). I think that the felons know that even if they are arrested and condemned, they are not going to spend a long time in prison (prison sentences are not very long, some time they seem a joke), and therefore it doesn't make sense ot worsen the charges by atacking or murdering someone. Also jails in Spain have a very open system of benefits and permits for good behaviour. IMHO police violence is reactive to crime violence, which is reactive to punishment toughtness. Is a growing violence spiral that can be stoped if there is a change in the way punishment is understood ( after all you must grand an honorable exit even to your worst enemy).

Zak 14y ago

I have some knowledge of this I don't entirely agree. I once wanted to be a police officer, and went through police training in Florida. I also currently study Aikido and Kali (Eskrima). I have practiced many knife disarm techniques and some defensive/offensive knife use. Taking a knife from someone who is actively trying to hurt or kill you with it and has even minimal training in how to use it for that purpose is extremely difficult. You will almost certainly be cut, and a cut to the arm can disable your hand. A baton improves the odds, but it's still very risky. Most police body armor does not provide significant protection from knives, nor does it cover the arms, legs or neck, which are excellent targets for a knife. Disarming or disabling a knife-wielding attacker requires tools that can be used from a long distance. Pepper spray and Tasers are good less-lethal options, especially when multiple officers are present. These should be tried in most situations before going to a firearm, but if a suspect charges an officer with a knife there isn't time to wait and see. The range of a Taser happens to be the same (21 feet) as the distance most people can cover in the amount of time it takes for most officers to draw and fire a pistol. If the Taser fails or misses, it doesn't hold a second shot and can't be reloaded quickly. Most of the time, I'd want the officer to risk trying the Taser, but it's not reasonable to ask someone to go up against a knife unarmed.

JonnieCache 14y ago
I agree, if it's an instant decision to avoid a knife in the ribs then nobody could think ill of someone for instinctively protecting their life. It's more things like this I'm talking about: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fpjFsmTDWuQ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fpjFsmTDWuQ It's obviously an extreme example but it illustrates the point, as does that business on the white house lawn. (Also I'd contend that in practice most knife-wielding assailants, far from being even moderately trained, are probably clueless and scared.)
- harshreality 14y ago
  Still, you don't want to bet your life that the assailant doesn't know how to wield a knife. I don't agree with shooting anyone who is brandishing a knife, but trying to disarm them is a horrible idea as well. As others have mentioned, using beanbag guns or a taser or tear gas or rubber bullets or just about any less-lethal option (with other officers ready to shoot if the assailant charges) is the best solution.