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So, immediate termination is ok for just yelling a few words, none of them being an f word against the CEO? I think they could just reprimand him and not fire h

So, immediate termination is ok for just yelling a few words, none of them being an f word against the CEO? I think they could just reprimand him and not fire him. This company is becoming a fear- and power-fueled autocracy of the board. Which won't bring any good to them.

smsm42 3y ago
Depending on the words, yes. Obviously, they disagree on what is the best way for the company to behave. In this case, the management of the company, by definition, has the priority, and if the differences are large enough, ending the employment relationship looks like the right way to go. Working at google is not some kind of right that belongs to everyone, it's a relationship between two sides, and each side can end it. Staging a protest on a keynote sounds like a good reason to end it.
- catlikesshrimp 3y ago
  Offer to relocate the employee first? >"Staging a protest on a keynote sounds like a good reason to end it." Google had shutdown the private forum without a proper discussion. Remind employees they can work in other areas? Going tangent: What if they were denouncing racism? Would it still be correct to fire them immediately? What about alleged genocide?
  - smsm42 3y ago
    > Offer to relocate the employee first? To Gaza? That's an interesting idea, but I don't think it'd work out very well. > Remind employees they can work in other areas? I don't think somebody who can't figure that out by themselves is really a very valuable asset. But also I don't think that's the problem. The person did that not because they weren't aware there are other people in Google working on other things - literally everybody is aware on that. They didn't just requested a transfer to another group. They staged a protest because they wanted to influence Google's decisions by publicly threatening the withdrawal of their contribution. Turns out, Google is ok with that scenario. When you bluff, you should always consider what happens if you're called. > Google had shutdown the private forum without a proper discussion As I understand, the reverse had happened - the forum was overflown with the inflammatory activist messaging having no relation to the topic it has been created for, and had to be shut down, because it could no longer serve the function it was created for. "Proper discussion" has never been the activists' intent (and in general, experience teaches us these kinds of activists are a lot more into shutting down and deplatforming opponents than properly debating them). Not that Google has ever lately been on the frontlines of enabling proper discussion - as most major tech companies, they have abandoned this idea years ago in favor of serving as a gatekeepers and the pretorian guard - but in this particular case, it seems to be pretty clear no proper discussing was intended. > What if they were denouncing racism? What if Google was literally run by Hitler? You can always make an inflammatory hypothetical. But I don't see much point in discussing it - there's an infinite things that could happen, you can't discuss them all. Better to concentrate on things that are actually happening.
    - catlikesshrimp 3y ago
      I'm sorry. You sound like a Google activist. No offence intended. > Offer to relocate the employee first? > Remind employees they can work in other areas? I was not clear with the meaning of that. I was thinking of rethorical public speech. As part of de escalation and call for order. Pulling the trigger first and asking later is an explict toxic culture manifestation.
CydeWeys 3y ago
You shouldn't be yelling at your boss's boss's boss in a large company forum. That's rank insubordination, and easily punishable with firing. Hell it could be punished with much worse than insubordination in other kinds of organizations; imagine a private yelling at a general when the entire corps is being reviewed. Companies are indeed hierarchical, and sometimes it feels like people forget that. You can indeed be fired at any time, and this is exactly the kind of situation you can put yourself in to have it happen to you.
- catlikesshrimp 3y ago
  I live in a country which often uses the army to enforce law. I say with no uncertainty that an army is different from any other institution. They even have their own judiciary (martial court). Comparing Google to an army is... wrong in not only one sense.
  - CydeWeys 3y ago
    It's right in the relevant sense here, namely that there is a hierarchy in place that you will face consequences for disrespecting.
    - catlikesshrimp 3y ago
      Army consequences are not comparable (Jail or death vs unemployment), hierarchy is absolute and clear (nobody is "his own manager"), no BS discourse (speak your mind, we respect rights, etc) You can't resign as easily, specially when deployed Maybe the US army is less violent and more civil
filoleg 3y ago
> immediate termination is ok for just yelling a few words, none of them being an f word against the CEO? Context matters. If someone just called the CEO an f-word in public, that’s one thing, and imo it doesn’t necessarily deserve getting fired on its own. But interrupting a major conference during a keynote, and then saying those things? Yeah, that would land you into trouble, almost no matter what you said. I fully and honestly believe that even if the employee took the pro-Israel stance with their “interrupt the keynote” protest, they would have been fired just the same.

smsm42 3y ago

Depending on the words, yes. Obviously, they disagree on what is the best way for the company to behave. In this case, the management of the company, by definition, has the priority, and if the differences are large enough, ending the employment relationship looks like the right way to go. Working at google is not some kind of right that belongs to everyone, it's a relationship between two sides, and each side can end it. Staging a protest on a keynote sounds like a good reason to end it.

catlikesshrimp 3y ago
Offer to relocate the employee first? >"Staging a protest on a keynote sounds like a good reason to end it." Google had shutdown the private forum without a proper discussion. Remind employees they can work in other areas? Going tangent: What if they were denouncing racism? Would it still be correct to fire them immediately? What about alleged genocide?
- smsm42 3y ago
  > Offer to relocate the employee first? To Gaza? That's an interesting idea, but I don't think it'd work out very well. > Remind employees they can work in other areas? I don't think somebody who can't figure that out by themselves is really a very valuable asset. But also I don't think that's the problem. The person did that not because they weren't aware there are other people in Google working on other things - literally everybody is aware on that. They didn't just requested a transfer to another group. They staged a protest because they wanted to influence Google's decisions by publicly threatening the withdrawal of their contribution. Turns out, Google is ok with that scenario. When you bluff, you should always consider what happens if you're called. > Google had shutdown the private forum without a proper discussion As I understand, the reverse had happened - the forum was overflown with the inflammatory activist messaging having no relation to the topic it has been created for, and had to be shut down, because it could no longer serve the function it was created for. "Proper discussion" has never been the activists' intent (and in general, experience teaches us these kinds of activists are a lot more into shutting down and deplatforming opponents than properly debating them). Not that Google has ever lately been on the frontlines of enabling proper discussion - as most major tech companies, they have abandoned this idea years ago in favor of serving as a gatekeepers and the pretorian guard - but in this particular case, it seems to be pretty clear no proper discussing was intended. > What if they were denouncing racism? What if Google was literally run by Hitler? You can always make an inflammatory hypothetical. But I don't see much point in discussing it - there's an infinite things that could happen, you can't discuss them all. Better to concentrate on things that are actually happening.
  - catlikesshrimp 3y ago
    I'm sorry. You sound like a Google activist. No offence intended. > Offer to relocate the employee first? > Remind employees they can work in other areas? I was not clear with the meaning of that. I was thinking of rethorical public speech. As part of de escalation and call for order. Pulling the trigger first and asking later is an explict toxic culture manifestation.

CydeWeys 3y ago

You shouldn't be yelling at your boss's boss's boss in a large company forum. That's rank insubordination, and easily punishable with firing. Hell it could be punished with much worse than insubordination in other kinds of organizations; imagine a private yelling at a general when the entire corps is being reviewed. Companies are indeed hierarchical, and sometimes it feels like people forget that. You can indeed be fired at any time, and this is exactly the kind of situation you can put yourself in to have it happen to you.

catlikesshrimp 3y ago
I live in a country which often uses the army to enforce law. I say with no uncertainty that an army is different from any other institution. They even have their own judiciary (martial court). Comparing Google to an army is... wrong in not only one sense.
- CydeWeys 3y ago
  It's right in the relevant sense here, namely that there is a hierarchy in place that you will face consequences for disrespecting.
  - catlikesshrimp 3y ago
    Army consequences are not comparable (Jail or death vs unemployment), hierarchy is absolute and clear (nobody is "his own manager"), no BS discourse (speak your mind, we respect rights, etc) You can't resign as easily, specially when deployed Maybe the US army is less violent and more civil

filoleg 3y ago

> immediate termination is ok for just yelling a few words, none of them being an f word against the CEO? Context matters. If someone just called the CEO an f-word in public, that’s one thing, and imo it doesn’t necessarily deserve getting fired on its own. But interrupting a major conference during a keynote, and then saying those things? Yeah, that would land you into trouble, almost no matter what you said. I fully and honestly believe that even if the employee took the pro-Israel stance with their “interrupt the keynote” protest, they would have been fired just the same.