6 ms·

I don't believe it is that, because police shoot people who are armed with knives, tree branches, and unarmed on a pretty regular basis... all of which are read

by gscott 15y ago

I don't believe it is that, because police shoot people who are armed with knives, tree branches, and unarmed on a pretty regular basis... all of which are readily available in Germany. There was a homeless person here in San Diego because he had a tree branch and looked like he was going to use it against the officers (the person was mentally ill). Not to mention the guy who jumped the White House fence who had a butterknife (the President wasn't in the country at the time). The butterknife guy was shot and killed, since he didn't follow orders to put the knife down. I believe it is a lack of respect for human life along with the fact that these cases have made it to the Superme Court which ruled for the officers, if the officer feel they are in danger, they can shoot to kill. And they do so. My guess is German police offers don't care if a person has a tree branch, butterknife, stones or whatever they go in and make the arrest without just shooting the person. There is some risk of personal injury but probably nothing that 10 officers with billy-clubs can't handle.

cskau 15y ago
> My guess is German police offers don't care if a person has a tree branch, butterknife, [...] I'm pretty sure policy is if the guy is holding a knife, you warn them and draw your gun. Then if the guy comes at you you've got the possibility to fire to avoid injury or death. While use of guns by the police is extremely scrutinized (it's often big in the news when it happens). The guns are a last resort in the really messy situations when there's no other way out. (And you have to prove that later on)
- JonnieCache 15y ago
  As far as I'm aware though, disarming someone with a knife is relatively easy if you're highly trained and armoured, and they are literally "coming at you," ie. you have plenty of notice. It all comes down to the value of human life: how much personal effort and risk are you willing to go to in order to protect a murderous criminal? Should you chance a little light judo to make him drop the blade? Or should you just put a cap through his eye socket and go to lunch? I know which category I'm more willing to be policed by.
  - tluyben2 15y ago
    Indeed; all police are trained in martial arts of some sort; disarming someone with a knife is usually easy. If you have been trained, you can see if your assailant is trained as well by how he holds the knife and the way he looks, moves and runs/walks. I'm talking knife here, not tree branch. Then you have (again, you are trained) the option to shoot him in the head, heart, stomach all of which are usually quite lethal OR you can hit the leg, knee, shoulder, arm. Why use LETHAL force? Actually, in almost all cases of police violence in the US; why did they use lethal force and not just cap someone's knee? Unless the person is on PCP (or a zombie; note that in Resident Evil when the first zombies come in, they first shoot in the knee; it's obvious right? Basic training?) (which, tiring to say, you can see if you are trained) she/he will drop their weapon (even guns mind you) if their knee is capped or shoulder is pulverized...
    - peteretep 15y ago
      > disarming someone with a knife is usually easy > you have the option to shoot him in the head, heart, stomach all of which are usually quite lethal OR you can hit the leg, knee, shoulder, arm You've been reading too much Martial Arts Wow literature. Taking a knife off someone is highly likely to get you cut, badly. Police don't aim for 'non lethal' parts of the body, because if you're using the gun, your life is being threatened, and you are using deadly force already - trying to hit anything other than the torso under these conditions (especially if the target is moving, or any real distance away) while your heart is pounding and your hands are shaking is very very difficult.
      - tluyben2 15y ago
        Yeah that's the whole point and problem; seems US police (and other gun bearers) seems to think their lives are threatened far too easily. That's the only stories we hear in the EU; obviously there will be plenty of cases were deadly force is needed. But if you feel your life is being threatened by unarmed people running away from a scene... ... And the martial arts wow depends on the case; I have only been in knife fights were the knife was pulled by a drunk guy. No problem taking that away. I would imagine this is often the case; depending on the drug it would not be hard, especially with a baton in hand. No guns needed. The stories I read here today, in the article and generally in the EU press about US shootings just show shoddy police work though. But that's because it's press; they don't really want to publish things that go well; only things that go bad. > trying to hit anything other than the torso under these conditions (especially if the target is moving, or any real distance away) while your heart is pounding and your hands are shaking is very very difficult. Real distance away? Talking about someone coming at you with a knife in hand... Moving => yes but towards you and I would like to bet most (by far) people will run at you in a straight line when attacking. But yes, of course, if you fear for your or someone else's life, you would shoot to kill. My whole point is that in the US it seems (i'm being careful here not to go with all public opinion :) police is far to trigger happy also in cases were it makes no sense at all. Edit: also if you read 'ajuc' his comment about Poland (and it's the same in NL and DE and probably the rest of EU); you have to shoot at the legs first. It's how we are raised to think and when there are police shootings here often (mostly) people are just wounded.

by gscott 15y ago

cskau 15y ago

> My guess is German police offers don't care if a person has a tree branch, butterknife, [...] I'm pretty sure policy is if the guy is holding a knife, you warn them and draw your gun. Then if the guy comes at you you've got the possibility to fire to avoid injury or death. While use of guns by the police is extremely scrutinized (it's often big in the news when it happens). The guns are a last resort in the really messy situations when there's no other way out. (And you have to prove that later on)

JonnieCache 15y ago
As far as I'm aware though, disarming someone with a knife is relatively easy if you're highly trained and armoured, and they are literally "coming at you," ie. you have plenty of notice. It all comes down to the value of human life: how much personal effort and risk are you willing to go to in order to protect a murderous criminal? Should you chance a little light judo to make him drop the blade? Or should you just put a cap through his eye socket and go to lunch? I know which category I'm more willing to be policed by.
- tluyben2 15y ago
  Indeed; all police are trained in martial arts of some sort; disarming someone with a knife is usually easy. If you have been trained, you can see if your assailant is trained as well by how he holds the knife and the way he looks, moves and runs/walks. I'm talking knife here, not tree branch. Then you have (again, you are trained) the option to shoot him in the head, heart, stomach all of which are usually quite lethal OR you can hit the leg, knee, shoulder, arm. Why use LETHAL force? Actually, in almost all cases of police violence in the US; why did they use lethal force and not just cap someone's knee? Unless the person is on PCP (or a zombie; note that in Resident Evil when the first zombies come in, they first shoot in the knee; it's obvious right? Basic training?) (which, tiring to say, you can see if you are trained) she/he will drop their weapon (even guns mind you) if their knee is capped or shoulder is pulverized...
  - peteretep 15y ago
    > disarming someone with a knife is usually easy > you have the option to shoot him in the head, heart, stomach all of which are usually quite lethal OR you can hit the leg, knee, shoulder, arm You've been reading too much Martial Arts Wow literature. Taking a knife off someone is highly likely to get you cut, badly. Police don't aim for 'non lethal' parts of the body, because if you're using the gun, your life is being threatened, and you are using deadly force already - trying to hit anything other than the torso under these conditions (especially if the target is moving, or any real distance away) while your heart is pounding and your hands are shaking is very very difficult.
    - tluyben2 15y ago
      Yeah that's the whole point and problem; seems US police (and other gun bearers) seems to think their lives are threatened far too easily. That's the only stories we hear in the EU; obviously there will be plenty of cases were deadly force is needed. But if you feel your life is being threatened by unarmed people running away from a scene... ... And the martial arts wow depends on the case; I have only been in knife fights were the knife was pulled by a drunk guy. No problem taking that away. I would imagine this is often the case; depending on the drug it would not be hard, especially with a baton in hand. No guns needed. The stories I read here today, in the article and generally in the EU press about US shootings just show shoddy police work though. But that's because it's press; they don't really want to publish things that go well; only things that go bad. > trying to hit anything other than the torso under these conditions (especially if the target is moving, or any real distance away) while your heart is pounding and your hands are shaking is very very difficult. Real distance away? Talking about someone coming at you with a knife in hand... Moving => yes but towards you and I would like to bet most (by far) people will run at you in a straight line when attacking. But yes, of course, if you fear for your or someone else's life, you would shoot to kill. My whole point is that in the US it seems (i'm being careful here not to go with all public opinion :) police is far to trigger happy also in cases were it makes no sense at all. Edit: also if you read 'ajuc' his comment about Poland (and it's the same in NL and DE and probably the rest of EU); you have to shoot at the legs first. It's how we are raised to think and when there are police shootings here often (mostly) people are just wounded.