4 ms·

- "“It’s interesting that the majority of the offences relate to an outfit of black silk – taffeta, satin or velvet – ornamented with some sort of precious meta

- "“It’s interesting that the majority of the offences relate to an outfit of black silk – taffeta, satin or velvet – ornamented with some sort of precious metal stitching or with lace. Just such an outfit appears in a portrait of an anonymous Genoese nobleman by the artist van Dyck which, to modern eyes, looks relatively sober. But black was a clear status symbol in Renaissance culture. Black dye was one of the most difficult to fix effectively, so we should be careful how we interpret these apparently ‘plain’ portraits,” said Galastro." Here's a related explanation from /r/AskHistorians, - "Black fabric was indeed more costly in the Middle Ages than many other colors, but it's not a straightforward question of dye expense. In terms of dyestuff, cost depended on two things: source of pigment and duration of dyeing process. The most popular option for dying fabric black in the Middle Ages was not, of course, "black pigment." It was to use woad, the bog-common blue pigment, to dye fabric to the darkest possible midnight tint. Then a second dye, typically a red (madder) or yellow (weld), would be added over the top to eliminate the blue tinge." - "Woad, weld, and madder were standard dyes, not prohbitively expensive for a decently-endowed monastic order. Benedictine monks could adhere to their Rule not to spend too much money on individual habits..." https://old.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/4b7lke/black_dye_and_the_hospitaller_knights_medieval_era/ https://old.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/4b7lke/black...

Simon_ORourke 3y ago
That's going to annoy any old school Goths out there!
- bigiain 3y ago
  I shall write a stern LiveJournal post about this!
xarope 3y ago
If I recall, a good black suit color is actually midnight blue, since a plain black color actually looks green in light
- ubutler 3y ago
  Shouldn’t a truly black suit, by definition, not reflect any (noticeable) colour in the presence of light? I haven’t really noticed my black suits reflecting green.
  - afiori 3y ago
    The way a color looks can depend greatly on context and expectations, for example on clothes sometimes a very slight blue tinge can make things look whiter
- vundercind 3y ago
  Midnight blue is common dinner jacket (tux) color if you want a very-black look in evening lighting. It has a blacker-than-black effect in the right environment.
perihelions 3y ago
For reference, here's all three of those dyes next to each other, on the same wool tapestry [0,1]—and also the black made by mixing them together. Says [2]: "Blue and black are the most stable dyes; the bright blue sky, woven with indigotin-containing dye (probably woad), has barely faded over the centuries. To achieve brown or black, a combination of madder, weld, and an indigotin-containing dye such as woad was used." [0] https://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/467654 https://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/467654 ("The Unicorn Surrenders to a Maiden (from the Unicorn Tapestries)") [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Unicorn_Tapestries https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Unicorn_Tapestries [2] https://sci-hub.se/10.1086/met.45.41558055 https://sci-hub.se/10.1086/met.45.41558055 ("Three Fragments of the “Mystic Capture of the Unicorn” Tapestry") edit: Here's an article [3] about the digitization story of these tapestries (presumably what's used in that hi-res zoomable image in [0]): "“It took us three months of computation,” Gregory said. “We should have just dropped it.”" [3] https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2005/04/11/capturing-the-unicorn https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2005/04/11/capturing-the-... ("Capturing the Unicorn")
082349872349872 3y ago
One can fairly reliably date adoption of a flag to before or after the invention of synthetic lightfast dyes by whether it incorporates colours other than red, white, and blue.
- perihelions 3y ago
  That doesn't sound right; synthetic dyes didn't exist until the mid-19th century and there's lots of other flag colors from way before that. Just a few of the major ones: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flags_of_the_Mughal_Empire https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flags_of_the_Mughal_Empire (Mughal Empire; green, yellow; 17th century) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_Prussia#Gallery https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_Prussia#Gallery (Prussia; black, yellow; 15th century) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flags_of_the_Holy_Roman_Empire#Imperial_banners https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flags_of_the_Holy_Roman_Empire... (Holy Roman Empire; black, yellow; 14th century) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heraldry_of_León#Medieval_standard_of_the_Kingdom_of_León https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heraldry_of_León#Medieval_stan... (Kingdom of León; purple; 12th century) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abbasid_Caliphate https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abbasid_Caliphate (Abbasid Caliphate; black; 8th century)
  - 082349872349872 3y ago
    Interesting; I'll have to check these out. Up until now the exception I had been aware of was the Dutch flag, which in theory had (16th century) been blue, white, orange, but in practice is flown with blue, white, red. ==== I think part of the issue here is distinguishing flags (flown by many people almost all the time) from banners/standards (flown by a small group that can afford to replace them often, only on certain occasions). So the HRE had a black/gold banner, but when they needed flags, they reached for red/white. (and Muhammad is said to have had a rāya in black but a ʿalam in white; this theory would predict that Muhammad's personal unit would fly the black banner, but his troops in general would have flown white flags) Then again, maybe black should be added to the basis set (what would this have been? indigo+madder? or after 1500, indigo+cochineal?) https://www.crwflags.com/fotw/flags/ch-war.html#desc https://www.crwflags.com/fotw/flags/ch-war.html#desc has a chronological list with many pre-1800 blacks, but only two anachronistic choices. (Uri:1291:gold/black, Schaffhausen:1501:green/black, although I should confirm the latter; I'd have expected* gold/black here as well and bet the green is post-Napoleonic) [EDIT: Indeed, now that I read more closely, the colours on the list are indeed post-Napoleonic, and the dates given are only used for sort order. It might be worth looking through some old artwork to see what the pre-1800 colour choices were. EDIT 2: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schlachtkapelle_Sempach#/media/Datei:Kapelle_Sempach_Gemälde.jpg https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schlachtkapelle_Sempach#/media... shows battle flags exactly equivalent to heraldic designs, but was painted ~250 years after the event depicted, so I'm not sure how reliable it may be.] That having taken care of Prussia, we're left with León and the Mughals. León the city and León the province both use noticeably redder colours than the purpure of the heraldry of León the kingdom, and the Mughal moss green seems to have been more a banner than a flag, flown infrequently enough to use non-lightfast colours: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flags_of_the_Mughal_Empire#:~:text=they%20were%20unfurled,and%20in%20battle https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flags_of_the_Mughal_Empire#:~:... Maybe I should say "usually" instead of "fairly reliably", but the exceptions have thus far been reasonably exceptional. * fun fact: the penis of Bern's bear is hilighted in red, but that of Schaffhausen's ram retains the background gold.
hilbert42 3y ago
""...the bog-common blue pigment, to dye fabric to the darkest possible midnight tint. Then a second dye, typically a red (madder) or yellow (weld), would be added over the top to eliminate the blue tinge."" I've occasionally wondered about dyes, their stability, and how they were fixed pre modern chemistry (before early-to-mid 19th C., Perkins et al), for me the practice of dyeing and its fixing process is a bit of a black art. Mind you, my experience at dyeing stuff is rather limited and I haven't attempted it in while. I mostly come at it from the other end when trying to get clothes clean and dyes either run or change color in the process. For instance, I had several pairs of almost identical navy blue work shorts made by two different manufacturers (the colors were essentially identical from each manufacturer). On one occasion I put two pairs of rather dirty shorts into a prewash stain remover to soak overnight, each pair was from a different manufacturer. The stain remover did a good job on both at removing stains but it turned one pair to a bright lairy magenta color whilst the color of the other remained completely unaltered. The magenta pair was so bright that it was rendered useless (I could do without the catcalls). A second similar incident occurred with a high-vis safety shirt colored florescent yellow and black. The yellow remained unaffected but the black turned a mottled darkish magenta color (it was still wearable however). Also, I've noticed other black clothing, T-shirts etc., will often tend towards a blackish magenta on harsh washing. It seems thus that we still have a problem dyeing deep black—or at least keeping it that color without it getting dull, dowdy and slightly shifting in hue. Although I have a little knowledge of dyes and pigments from chemistry, indigo, azo, mordant red, etc., I've little idea what dyes are used for black other than it seems to be at least a two-color process. Perhaps things haven't changed as much as I'd thought (right, we know indigo has been with us for millennia but I'm a bit surprised we've still a problem with black). Is anyone up-to-date about dying stuff black? Edit: BTW, I've noticed that when trying to remove black ballpoint pen stains from shirt pockets with solvents such as ethanol that the color upon dilution is often not black but rather dirty shades of a magenta/bluish color. Seems we've a similar problem here.
- sorokod 3y ago
  Some paractioners of Japanese martial arts wear a hakama, a sort Japanese trousers (not a great description this, have a look online). The tradionalists go for a proper indigo hakama which absolutley "bleeds" it's colour to the annoyance of practice partners. Check out the care instructions from one traditional hakama manufacturer https://iwataco.com/about_hakama#care https://iwataco.com/about_hakama#care
dr_dshiv 3y ago
I still have a black T shirt I bought at a 711 in Tokyo in 2007. It is the only black T shirt I own that doesn’t fade. Anyone know what magic is involved?
- grugagag 3y ago
  > It is the only black T shirt I own that doesn’t fade Is it synthetic?
- jihadjihad 3y ago
  > Anyone know what magic is involved? White magic.

Simon_ORourke 3y ago

That's going to annoy any old school Goths out there!

bigiain 3y ago
I shall write a stern LiveJournal post about this!

xarope 3y ago

If I recall, a good black suit color is actually midnight blue, since a plain black color actually looks green in light

ubutler 3y ago
Shouldn’t a truly black suit, by definition, not reflect any (noticeable) colour in the presence of light? I haven’t really noticed my black suits reflecting green.
- afiori 3y ago
  The way a color looks can depend greatly on context and expectations, for example on clothes sometimes a very slight blue tinge can make things look whiter
vundercind 3y ago
Midnight blue is common dinner jacket (tux) color if you want a very-black look in evening lighting. It has a blacker-than-black effect in the right environment.

perihelions 3y ago

For reference, here's all three of those dyes next to each other, on the same wool tapestry [0,1]—and also the black made by mixing them together. Says [2]: "Blue and black are the most stable dyes; the bright blue sky, woven with indigotin-containing dye (probably woad), has barely faded over the centuries. To achieve brown or black, a combination of madder, weld, and an indigotin-containing dye such as woad was used." [0] https://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/467654 https://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/467654 ("The Unicorn Surrenders to a Maiden (from the Unicorn Tapestries)") [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Unicorn_Tapestries https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Unicorn_Tapestries [2] https://sci-hub.se/10.1086/met.45.41558055 https://sci-hub.se/10.1086/met.45.41558055 ("Three Fragments of the “Mystic Capture of the Unicorn” Tapestry") edit: Here's an article [3] about the digitization story of these tapestries (presumably what's used in that hi-res zoomable image in [0]): "“It took us three months of computation,” Gregory said. “We should have just dropped it.”" [3] https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2005/04/11/capturing-the-unicorn https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2005/04/11/capturing-the-... ("Capturing the Unicorn")

082349872349872 3y ago

One can fairly reliably date adoption of a flag to before or after the invention of synthetic lightfast dyes by whether it incorporates colours other than red, white, and blue.

perihelions 3y ago
That doesn't sound right; synthetic dyes didn't exist until the mid-19th century and there's lots of other flag colors from way before that. Just a few of the major ones: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flags_of_the_Mughal_Empire https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flags_of_the_Mughal_Empire (Mughal Empire; green, yellow; 17th century) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_Prussia#Gallery https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_Prussia#Gallery (Prussia; black, yellow; 15th century) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flags_of_the_Holy_Roman_Empire#Imperial_banners https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flags_of_the_Holy_Roman_Empire... (Holy Roman Empire; black, yellow; 14th century) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heraldry_of_León#Medieval_standard_of_the_Kingdom_of_León https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heraldry_of_León#Medieval_stan... (Kingdom of León; purple; 12th century) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abbasid_Caliphate https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abbasid_Caliphate (Abbasid Caliphate; black; 8th century)
- 082349872349872 3y ago
  Interesting; I'll have to check these out. Up until now the exception I had been aware of was the Dutch flag, which in theory had (16th century) been blue, white, orange, but in practice is flown with blue, white, red. ==== I think part of the issue here is distinguishing flags (flown by many people almost all the time) from banners/standards (flown by a small group that can afford to replace them often, only on certain occasions). So the HRE had a black/gold banner, but when they needed flags, they reached for red/white. (and Muhammad is said to have had a rāya in black but a ʿalam in white; this theory would predict that Muhammad's personal unit would fly the black banner, but his troops in general would have flown white flags) Then again, maybe black should be added to the basis set (what would this have been? indigo+madder? or after 1500, indigo+cochineal?) https://www.crwflags.com/fotw/flags/ch-war.html#desc https://www.crwflags.com/fotw/flags/ch-war.html#desc has a chronological list with many pre-1800 blacks, but only two anachronistic choices. (Uri:1291:gold/black, Schaffhausen:1501:green/black, although I should confirm the latter; I'd have expected* gold/black here as well and bet the green is post-Napoleonic) [EDIT: Indeed, now that I read more closely, the colours on the list are indeed post-Napoleonic, and the dates given are only used for sort order. It might be worth looking through some old artwork to see what the pre-1800 colour choices were. EDIT 2: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schlachtkapelle_Sempach#/media/Datei:Kapelle_Sempach_Gemälde.jpg https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schlachtkapelle_Sempach#/media... shows battle flags exactly equivalent to heraldic designs, but was painted ~250 years after the event depicted, so I'm not sure how reliable it may be.] That having taken care of Prussia, we're left with León and the Mughals. León the city and León the province both use noticeably redder colours than the purpure of the heraldry of León the kingdom, and the Mughal moss green seems to have been more a banner than a flag, flown infrequently enough to use non-lightfast colours: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flags_of_the_Mughal_Empire#:~:text=they%20were%20unfurled,and%20in%20battle https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flags_of_the_Mughal_Empire#:~:... Maybe I should say "usually" instead of "fairly reliably", but the exceptions have thus far been reasonably exceptional. * fun fact: the penis of Bern's bear is hilighted in red, but that of Schaffhausen's ram retains the background gold.

hilbert42 3y ago

""...the bog-common blue pigment, to dye fabric to the darkest possible midnight tint. Then a second dye, typically a red (madder) or yellow (weld), would be added over the top to eliminate the blue tinge."" I've occasionally wondered about dyes, their stability, and how they were fixed pre modern chemistry (before early-to-mid 19th C., Perkins et al), for me the practice of dyeing and its fixing process is a bit of a black art. Mind you, my experience at dyeing stuff is rather limited and I haven't attempted it in while. I mostly come at it from the other end when trying to get clothes clean and dyes either run or change color in the process. For instance, I had several pairs of almost identical navy blue work shorts made by two different manufacturers (the colors were essentially identical from each manufacturer). On one occasion I put two pairs of rather dirty shorts into a prewash stain remover to soak overnight, each pair was from a different manufacturer. The stain remover did a good job on both at removing stains but it turned one pair to a bright lairy magenta color whilst the color of the other remained completely unaltered. The magenta pair was so bright that it was rendered useless (I could do without the catcalls). A second similar incident occurred with a high-vis safety shirt colored florescent yellow and black. The yellow remained unaffected but the black turned a mottled darkish magenta color (it was still wearable however). Also, I've noticed other black clothing, T-shirts etc., will often tend towards a blackish magenta on harsh washing. It seems thus that we still have a problem dyeing deep black—or at least keeping it that color without it getting dull, dowdy and slightly shifting in hue. Although I have a little knowledge of dyes and pigments from chemistry, indigo, azo, mordant red, etc., I've little idea what dyes are used for black other than it seems to be at least a two-color process. Perhaps things haven't changed as much as I'd thought (right, we know indigo has been with us for millennia but I'm a bit surprised we've still a problem with black). Is anyone up-to-date about dying stuff black? Edit: BTW, I've noticed that when trying to remove black ballpoint pen stains from shirt pockets with solvents such as ethanol that the color upon dilution is often not black but rather dirty shades of a magenta/bluish color. Seems we've a similar problem here.

sorokod 3y ago
Some paractioners of Japanese martial arts wear a hakama, a sort Japanese trousers (not a great description this, have a look online). The tradionalists go for a proper indigo hakama which absolutley "bleeds" it's colour to the annoyance of practice partners. Check out the care instructions from one traditional hakama manufacturer https://iwataco.com/about_hakama#care https://iwataco.com/about_hakama#care

dr_dshiv 3y ago

I still have a black T shirt I bought at a 711 in Tokyo in 2007. It is the only black T shirt I own that doesn’t fade. Anyone know what magic is involved?

grugagag 3y ago
> It is the only black T shirt I own that doesn’t fade Is it synthetic?
jihadjihad 3y ago
> Anyone know what magic is involved? White magic.