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Fantastic story, one of my favorites by Asimov! What's fun for HN is that his target profession is actually Computer Programmer. Interesting correlation to his

by eliben 3y ago

Fantastic story, one of my favorites by Asimov! What's fun for HN is that his target profession is actually Computer Programmer. Interesting correlation to his eventual fate. I wrote a short post about this story w.r.t. job displacement of SWEs a couple of years ago: https://eli.thegreenplace.net/2022/asimov-programming-and-the-meta-ladder/ https://eli.thegreenplace.net/2022/asimov-programming-and-th...

bruce511 3y ago
My favorite Asimov. What particularly resonates with me is the idea that creators create. They create because something inside makes them do it, it's not about pay, or relationships, or people. It comes out in all kinds of ways. In mundane tasks like cooking, or music, or art. Or, in a few cases, programming. Over a long career I've come to agree with Asimovs premise. You cannot simply tell someone to create. They either have it or they don't. Equally you cannot tell a creator not to create. They will, whether you like it or not. And yes, it's a very rare attribute. Most people can be trained to do a task really well. Very few can create. Lucky indeed is the creator who gets paid to create. Having a job with the freedom to create is the ultimate success.
- kwhitefoot 3y ago
  > Very few can create. I'm not convinced. I think that several things hold most people back from creation: - the risks that must be taken - the continual destruction that accompanies creation feels like a waste to many of us - other commitments I'm convinced that we are allowing vast amounts of creative ability to be stifled not merely by stultifying educational systems but simply by lack of opportunity.
  - xw390111 3y ago
    Probably we need a firmer definition of "create" but I think the main thing that holds people back is it takes a ton of work and focus to get to state-of-the-art in most fields. Many people won't be able to receive that kind of training and make that kind of investment in time for many reasons. So already it's going to be rare. Then combine that with your reasons, and it's super rare. On the other hand, the population is big, so it does happen. :)
    - smeej 3y ago
      I think the main thing that holds people back is an inability to imagine the world's being fundamentally different than it is, or maybe a willingness to accept the world's staying pretty much like it is. I don't actually know whether people can't create or just won't create. I hadn't read this story before, but it helped bring into relief the frustration that has always haunted me, this sense that, no, the world actually must be different than people believe it is and can be. There must be something that actually can be done, that it doesn't have to be this way and actually ought not. I've spent my whole life looking for that flash of recognition in someone else's eyes that they know it too, but have searched tens of thousands of faces in vain.
      - KerrAvon 3y ago
        That’s simply not how people work. Everyone is programmed by environment and genetics. Breaking your programming requires a change in perspective (remember Alan Kay: “point of view is worth 80 IQ points”) — whether forced by circumstance, chemicals, or boredom.
      - bruce511 3y ago
        >> "I've spent my whole life looking for that flash of recognition in someone else's eyes that they know it too. That's somewhat orthogonal to creation. Although it is something some creators see, and set out to change it. But the group who can see a different, say, social structure, are distinct from creators. Creators create, not to change things, but because that's how they are. Changers can see a different path, and are frustrated that change is hard. Both are small minorities, with some overlap, but are distinct groups. Incidentally there are lots of population groups around the world, in every country. The Amish, which gave rise to this thread, are an example of that.
        smeej 3y ago
        There might be a level of changers like you mean, but they're not the people I'm looking for either. That's just making the world slightly different. The people I'm looking for are the ones who have actually had to grapple with why there is anything, rather than nothing at all. Nothing before them is taken for granted as necessarily so. Those are creators, and most people never ask the questions.
  - perilunar 3y ago
    I'm not convinced either: Do schools kill creativity? | Sir Ken Robinson | TED https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iG9CE55wbtY&t=794s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iG9CE55wbtY&t=794s (edit: apparently it's the most watched TED Talk of all time)
- zem 3y ago
  > Equally you cannot tell a creator not to create. They will, whether you like it or not. for a much darker take on this, check out orson scott card's "unaccompanied sonata"
- bryanrasmussen 3y ago
  Pretty much every human can create, leaving out those with specific mental disabilities. Many humans never get in a situation where there is an interesting enough problem for them to create a solution or where a need or benefit is seen for them to create to fill that need or derive that benefit. For the humans that do most of them only do so once or incredibly maybe even twice, think people who essentially make one thing - like Italo Marchiony who created the ice cream cone and I don't think much else other than a business to exploit his creation. The people who are thought of as creators are able to create quickly and a lot and often seemingly at will. This is essentially their primary skill and what sets them apart from others. Because of this skill they may even use it as the proverbial hammer looking for nails. I've written some on my views on creativity - https://medium.com/p/1484652bcc97 https://medium.com/p/1484652bcc97 - generally in relation to writing and criticism probably the most relevant article is this one "A Theory As To Why Art Is Created" https://medium.com/p/b0a2538416e3 https://medium.com/p/b0a2538416e3
  - bruce511 3y ago
    >> Many humans never get in a situation where there is an interesting enough problem for them to create a solution or where a need or benefit is seen for them to create to fill that need or derive that benefit. And yet new things sell really well. Which suggests that the need is there. By contrast creators look around and see need in everything. >> The people who are thought of as creators are able to create quickly and a lot and often seemingly at will. This is essentially their primary skill and what sets them apart from others. Exactly. Now don't get me wrong, 99% of their creations are rubbish. 99% of their ideas are quickly discarded. Some would require more resources than they have available. But they are forever experimenting, learning, understanding. They can't help it.
    - bryanrasmussen 3y ago
      sure but the fact that some farmer has a problem with how to sell his ugly carrots and as a consequence creates baby carrots argues that all humans, disregarding specific disabilities, can create, but just like some people are better at running, others better at dancing, some people are just really good at creating.
- qwertywert_ 3y ago
  There are lots of reasons why some people don't think about "creating", maybe they had childhood issues or are too stressed, too mentally drained with other areas in life, never got nourished to love creativity or never had an inner self belief that they can create. Or they simply got "stuck" in something, never to get out and find some passion. What even is creating, some people (unlike many programmers or scientists) create social groups, organisations, humor. I think your idea that there are special "creators" and "regular people" is way off and honestly just a way to feel special and unique. I know people that finally found passion after they retired.. but they were too bogged down to ever figure it out earlier in life.
- hnthrowaway0328 3y ago
  That is always my refute to people who think that money alone can buy creators. Real creators do not give a fuck about money, they just have to.

by eliben 3y ago

bruce511 3y ago

My favorite Asimov. What particularly resonates with me is the idea that creators create. They create because something inside makes them do it, it's not about pay, or relationships, or people. It comes out in all kinds of ways. In mundane tasks like cooking, or music, or art. Or, in a few cases, programming. Over a long career I've come to agree with Asimovs premise. You cannot simply tell someone to create. They either have it or they don't. Equally you cannot tell a creator not to create. They will, whether you like it or not. And yes, it's a very rare attribute. Most people can be trained to do a task really well. Very few can create. Lucky indeed is the creator who gets paid to create. Having a job with the freedom to create is the ultimate success.

kwhitefoot 3y ago
> Very few can create. I'm not convinced. I think that several things hold most people back from creation: - the risks that must be taken - the continual destruction that accompanies creation feels like a waste to many of us - other commitments I'm convinced that we are allowing vast amounts of creative ability to be stifled not merely by stultifying educational systems but simply by lack of opportunity.
- xw390111 3y ago
  Probably we need a firmer definition of "create" but I think the main thing that holds people back is it takes a ton of work and focus to get to state-of-the-art in most fields. Many people won't be able to receive that kind of training and make that kind of investment in time for many reasons. So already it's going to be rare. Then combine that with your reasons, and it's super rare. On the other hand, the population is big, so it does happen. :)
  - smeej 3y ago
    I think the main thing that holds people back is an inability to imagine the world's being fundamentally different than it is, or maybe a willingness to accept the world's staying pretty much like it is. I don't actually know whether people can't create or just won't create. I hadn't read this story before, but it helped bring into relief the frustration that has always haunted me, this sense that, no, the world actually must be different than people believe it is and can be. There must be something that actually can be done, that it doesn't have to be this way and actually ought not. I've spent my whole life looking for that flash of recognition in someone else's eyes that they know it too, but have searched tens of thousands of faces in vain.
    - KerrAvon 3y ago
      That’s simply not how people work. Everyone is programmed by environment and genetics. Breaking your programming requires a change in perspective (remember Alan Kay: “point of view is worth 80 IQ points”) — whether forced by circumstance, chemicals, or boredom.
    - bruce511 3y ago
      >> "I've spent my whole life looking for that flash of recognition in someone else's eyes that they know it too. That's somewhat orthogonal to creation. Although it is something some creators see, and set out to change it. But the group who can see a different, say, social structure, are distinct from creators. Creators create, not to change things, but because that's how they are. Changers can see a different path, and are frustrated that change is hard. Both are small minorities, with some overlap, but are distinct groups. Incidentally there are lots of population groups around the world, in every country. The Amish, which gave rise to this thread, are an example of that.
      - smeej 3y ago
        There might be a level of changers like you mean, but they're not the people I'm looking for either. That's just making the world slightly different. The people I'm looking for are the ones who have actually had to grapple with why there is anything, rather than nothing at all. Nothing before them is taken for granted as necessarily so. Those are creators, and most people never ask the questions.
- perilunar 3y ago
  I'm not convinced either: Do schools kill creativity? | Sir Ken Robinson | TED https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iG9CE55wbtY&t=794s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iG9CE55wbtY&t=794s (edit: apparently it's the most watched TED Talk of all time)
zem 3y ago
> Equally you cannot tell a creator not to create. They will, whether you like it or not. for a much darker take on this, check out orson scott card's "unaccompanied sonata"
bryanrasmussen 3y ago
Pretty much every human can create, leaving out those with specific mental disabilities. Many humans never get in a situation where there is an interesting enough problem for them to create a solution or where a need or benefit is seen for them to create to fill that need or derive that benefit. For the humans that do most of them only do so once or incredibly maybe even twice, think people who essentially make one thing - like Italo Marchiony who created the ice cream cone and I don't think much else other than a business to exploit his creation. The people who are thought of as creators are able to create quickly and a lot and often seemingly at will. This is essentially their primary skill and what sets them apart from others. Because of this skill they may even use it as the proverbial hammer looking for nails. I've written some on my views on creativity - https://medium.com/p/1484652bcc97 https://medium.com/p/1484652bcc97 - generally in relation to writing and criticism probably the most relevant article is this one "A Theory As To Why Art Is Created" https://medium.com/p/b0a2538416e3 https://medium.com/p/b0a2538416e3
- bruce511 3y ago
  >> Many humans never get in a situation where there is an interesting enough problem for them to create a solution or where a need or benefit is seen for them to create to fill that need or derive that benefit. And yet new things sell really well. Which suggests that the need is there. By contrast creators look around and see need in everything. >> The people who are thought of as creators are able to create quickly and a lot and often seemingly at will. This is essentially their primary skill and what sets them apart from others. Exactly. Now don't get me wrong, 99% of their creations are rubbish. 99% of their ideas are quickly discarded. Some would require more resources than they have available. But they are forever experimenting, learning, understanding. They can't help it.
  - bryanrasmussen 3y ago
    sure but the fact that some farmer has a problem with how to sell his ugly carrots and as a consequence creates baby carrots argues that all humans, disregarding specific disabilities, can create, but just like some people are better at running, others better at dancing, some people are just really good at creating.
qwertywert_ 3y ago
There are lots of reasons why some people don't think about "creating", maybe they had childhood issues or are too stressed, too mentally drained with other areas in life, never got nourished to love creativity or never had an inner self belief that they can create. Or they simply got "stuck" in something, never to get out and find some passion. What even is creating, some people (unlike many programmers or scientists) create social groups, organisations, humor. I think your idea that there are special "creators" and "regular people" is way off and honestly just a way to feel special and unique. I know people that finally found passion after they retired.. but they were too bogged down to ever figure it out earlier in life.
hnthrowaway0328 3y ago
That is always my refute to people who think that money alone can buy creators. Real creators do not give a fuck about money, they just have to.