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Japanese Handsaws: The Maebiki Ooga

127 points by surprisetalk 3y ago

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
bamboozled 3y ago
They look like they’re having so much fun in that image. Makes me wonder how we ended up sitting at a desk.
- aidenn0 3y ago
  Doing rip-cuts by hand is not fun. It's really tough work, regardless of the saw you are using.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - starkparker 3y ago
    You can see it in action: https://youtu.be/dH4PfYr9Sac?t=94 https://youtu.be/dH4PfYr9Sac?t=94 May be subjective, but nobody involved appears to be having a good time.
    - bamboozled 3y ago
      Knowing Japanese culture intimately, those are a pretty standard expressions for a skilled tradesmen to be making. Don't see the dissatisfaction at all. I liked the video though, thanks.
  - steve_adams_86 3y ago
    It’s like a full body workout and the rough part is that results are often garbage without quite a bit of practice and a decent saw. Putting in all that work to get bad cuts is soul crushing (speaking from experience).
m3kw9 3y ago
Can’t imagine the horrors if you get a cut back then
- maztaim 3y ago
  the ancient version of a sawstop. You were probably less likely to lose a limb in an instant…
  - verve_rat 3y ago
    Yeah, but I think m3kw9 was referring to dying of infection from an otherwise minor wound.
    - maztaim 3y ago
      That's true. A whole other problem. Rub some aloe on it and hope it stops swelling.
bgun 3y ago
To say nothing of the article itself, I absolutely love this website. Everything from the visual aesthetic & typefaces to the writer’s tone proclaims a deep, unwaveringly passionate nerd-dom that hearkens to the Internet I love and too rarely find in the wild anymore. Information about using and maintaining woodworking tools, especially Japanese chisels, planes and handsaws Find me an Instagram account this spellbinding and I will eat my hat.
maztaim 3y ago
I learned how to use Japanese Dozuki saws for dovetails over western style saws. Also, because woodworkers in Japan still use them regularly, acquiring saws of Japanese origin are significantly more affordable. Ironically, I prefer pre-World War II Stanley hand planes over Japanese hand planes, but likely because I learned all the meticulous methods of restoring and truing them to get those addictive gossamer shavings. I follow Shoyan Japanese Carpenter on youtube. Worth a watch or three. https://m.youtube.com/@ShoyanJapaneseCarpenter/videos https://m.youtube.com/@ShoyanJapaneseCarpenter/videos
- blackguardx 3y ago
  Why pre-WW2? I think the quality peak was in the 50s.
  - YeBanKo 3y ago
    Because of fetish. Woodworking, blacksmithing, knife sharpening, hunting and fishing, and of course guns are often very fetishized hobbies. To make that cutting board really flat, certifiably flat, it has to be done with a set of Stanley hand planes that you can buy rusty for a mere $250 from eBay or CL and then spend 2 months restoring them. I respect carpentry, woodworking and the skill required to rip a piece of wood with such a saw, but I bet most of medieval Japanese craftsmen would ditch their hands saws for a Harbor Freight table saw in a heartbeat. In modern times to spend 7 hours ripping one piece of wood has little to do with woodworking.
    - throwawaaarrgh 3y ago
      You're missing out on the most critical detail of Japanese culture that is lost by most westerners: Speed isn't more important than having respect for your craft. If you have to go slower to produce a better result, you go slower. If you have to work harder to perfect an incredibly tight joint, you do that. You don't have to use traditional joinery to build in Japan today. But if you build something in a shitty way, it reflects poorly on you. Efficiency is not the goal.
dieselgate 3y ago
Super cool article, the only word I can find to describe the geometry shown is “radical”. Harbor Freight sells a cheap Japanese hand saw and am always happy to use it. It seems with a taller blade though, deep cuts are difficult due to friction/binding forces on the blade. Curious how the tall blade shown works out - am sure it does fine but curious on feel
harimau777 3y ago
Japanese tools remind me of cast iron cookware in the sense that: they are more difficult to care for in that they have to be used and cared for in a specific way; however, they are easier to care for in that there is an established way to use and care for them.
sonofhans 3y ago
I’m an amateur woodworker. I’ve used Japanese saws, chisels, and other tools for many years. It has always seemed to me that efficiency and skill are the driving forces behind many traditional Japanese woodworking practices. They tend to be very efficient in using metal and wood, paying for this efficiency with greater skill requirements for the tools and techniques. This means they often need complicated tools or joinery to achieve the same things that a European carpenter may have solved by adding another oak beam, more metal bracing, or a longer saw. For example, the article talks about the bimetal construction of this saw, using expensive and rare high-quality steel only for the teeth (this efficient use of rare metal is also the driving force behind the design of the katana). This is harder to make than a full-steel tool. Japanese saws are typically very thin, again requiring much less metal. This means that the saws cut on a pull stroke, rather than a push stroke like European saws. Since the saw is much more flexible this requires more skill. But you end up with a very thin kerf and minimal waste. Much traditional Japanese carpentry involves complex joints made of hardwood, not typically fastened with metal (e.g., nails, screws). The amount of slop you’d see in an 18th-century metal-fastened European joint would have been unthinkable to a contemporaneous Japanese carpenter.
- steve_adams_86 3y ago
  To your last point, some of the joinery used at that time was absolutely beautiful and required levels of skill many modern wood workers will never attain. It’s fascinating how much precision was necessary to make such ornate joints work. And they were even perfectly functional, too. I tried my hand at a few for years and never produced anything worth using in a project around my home. I’m nothing like good at wood working, but it was humbling anyway. They did so much more than I can with a lot less than I’ve got. I guess they had time, mentors, and a culture valuing skilled craftsmanship on their side.
  - jfoutz 3y ago
    You tried longer than I did. maybe 2 years or so, probably less. I do really like my cheap double sided pull saw. I don't think I realized how much extra control I have with that longer handle, till I read some of the links that talk about different handle attachments. I also found it quite humbling. But I take a little comfort in, that was their job, man. It's our hobby. I tell myself if I spent 10 years at that instead of poking at computers, I'd do a lot better. (That may not be true, but it's what I tell myself)
horrysith 3y ago
[flagged]
FrostKiwi 3y ago
Surprised to see this posted here, as I recently took care of one. Brought an Ooga for a friend via plane from Japan to Germany, to be used for building Clavichords [1] in Venice of all things. Barely fit into our travel bag and looked ridiculous at check-in. Fun times. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clavichord https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clavichord
joeblubaugh 3y ago
What is the deal with the Sowell quote? Not much to do with saw design
WillAdams 3y ago
While I'm fond of Japanese (and Korean) chisels, the planes and saws are quite tied to Japanese/Korean/Chinese workholding techniques which I'm not quite flexible enough for these days (even though I still often sit on the floor in my living room to use a computer). An interesting alternative (and high-tech) approach is the Jointmaker Pro from Bridge City Tool Works: https://bridgecitytools.com/collections/jointmaker-pro https://bridgecitytools.com/collections/jointmaker-pro which turns the saw upside down, and instead has one moving the stock past it. I find it quite handy for cutting apart boxes made on my CNC machines: https://community.carbide3d.com/t/cutting-boxes-and-a-new-toy/66302 https://community.carbide3d.com/t/cutting-boxes-and-a-new-to... Originally founded by John Economaki: https://www.woodworkersjournal.com/john-economaki-designer-of-tools/ https://www.woodworkersjournal.com/john-economaki-designer-o... the company has since been acquired by a Chinese company and production has shifted to China --- daily sales have become a central aspect of the company's business model --- they seem to use them for ensuring cash flow (often a given item has a limited number available, so FOMO drives purchasing) and adjusting inventory (though that latter is just a reasonable surmise).
badcppdev 3y ago
From the first caption: "She is no doubt waiting for her husband to pause his file work ...snip... Some things never change with time or place, so she probably isn’t standing there silently, but I will leave the subject of the one-sided conversation to Gentle Reader’s imagination." It's funny but I look at that picture and think they could be a happy couple talking to each other. It's a pity that the website owner chose to insert a stereotyped assumption.
ninininino 3y ago
There's an incredible new ultralight titanium folding bow saw called the Brautigam BEW saw made by a cottage gear maker called Brautigam expedition works if anyone is in the market for a new backpacking saw. You can store extra blades inside of the saw itself when its in collapsed form and the quality to weight ratio is pretty incredible.

127 points by surprisetalk 3y ago

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

bamboozled 3y ago

They look like they’re having so much fun in that image. Makes me wonder how we ended up sitting at a desk.

aidenn0 3y ago
Doing rip-cuts by hand is not fun. It's really tough work, regardless of the saw you are using.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- starkparker 3y ago
  You can see it in action: https://youtu.be/dH4PfYr9Sac?t=94 https://youtu.be/dH4PfYr9Sac?t=94 May be subjective, but nobody involved appears to be having a good time.
  - bamboozled 3y ago
    Knowing Japanese culture intimately, those are a pretty standard expressions for a skilled tradesmen to be making. Don't see the dissatisfaction at all. I liked the video though, thanks.
- steve_adams_86 3y ago
  It’s like a full body workout and the rough part is that results are often garbage without quite a bit of practice and a decent saw. Putting in all that work to get bad cuts is soul crushing (speaking from experience).

m3kw9 3y ago

Can’t imagine the horrors if you get a cut back then

maztaim 3y ago
the ancient version of a sawstop. You were probably less likely to lose a limb in an instant…
- verve_rat 3y ago
  Yeah, but I think m3kw9 was referring to dying of infection from an otherwise minor wound.
  - maztaim 3y ago
    That's true. A whole other problem. Rub some aloe on it and hope it stops swelling.

bgun 3y ago

To say nothing of the article itself, I absolutely love this website. Everything from the visual aesthetic & typefaces to the writer’s tone proclaims a deep, unwaveringly passionate nerd-dom that hearkens to the Internet I love and too rarely find in the wild anymore. Information about using and maintaining woodworking tools, especially Japanese chisels, planes and handsaws Find me an Instagram account this spellbinding and I will eat my hat.

maztaim 3y ago

I learned how to use Japanese Dozuki saws for dovetails over western style saws. Also, because woodworkers in Japan still use them regularly, acquiring saws of Japanese origin are significantly more affordable. Ironically, I prefer pre-World War II Stanley hand planes over Japanese hand planes, but likely because I learned all the meticulous methods of restoring and truing them to get those addictive gossamer shavings. I follow Shoyan Japanese Carpenter on youtube. Worth a watch or three. https://m.youtube.com/@ShoyanJapaneseCarpenter/videos https://m.youtube.com/@ShoyanJapaneseCarpenter/videos

blackguardx 3y ago
Why pre-WW2? I think the quality peak was in the 50s.
- YeBanKo 3y ago
  Because of fetish. Woodworking, blacksmithing, knife sharpening, hunting and fishing, and of course guns are often very fetishized hobbies. To make that cutting board really flat, certifiably flat, it has to be done with a set of Stanley hand planes that you can buy rusty for a mere $250 from eBay or CL and then spend 2 months restoring them. I respect carpentry, woodworking and the skill required to rip a piece of wood with such a saw, but I bet most of medieval Japanese craftsmen would ditch their hands saws for a Harbor Freight table saw in a heartbeat. In modern times to spend 7 hours ripping one piece of wood has little to do with woodworking.
  - throwawaaarrgh 3y ago
    You're missing out on the most critical detail of Japanese culture that is lost by most westerners: Speed isn't more important than having respect for your craft. If you have to go slower to produce a better result, you go slower. If you have to work harder to perfect an incredibly tight joint, you do that. You don't have to use traditional joinery to build in Japan today. But if you build something in a shitty way, it reflects poorly on you. Efficiency is not the goal.

dieselgate 3y ago

Super cool article, the only word I can find to describe the geometry shown is “radical”. Harbor Freight sells a cheap Japanese hand saw and am always happy to use it. It seems with a taller blade though, deep cuts are difficult due to friction/binding forces on the blade. Curious how the tall blade shown works out - am sure it does fine but curious on feel

harimau777 3y ago

Japanese tools remind me of cast iron cookware in the sense that: they are more difficult to care for in that they have to be used and cared for in a specific way; however, they are easier to care for in that there is an established way to use and care for them.

sonofhans 3y ago

I’m an amateur woodworker. I’ve used Japanese saws, chisels, and other tools for many years. It has always seemed to me that efficiency and skill are the driving forces behind many traditional Japanese woodworking practices. They tend to be very efficient in using metal and wood, paying for this efficiency with greater skill requirements for the tools and techniques. This means they often need complicated tools or joinery to achieve the same things that a European carpenter may have solved by adding another oak beam, more metal bracing, or a longer saw. For example, the article talks about the bimetal construction of this saw, using expensive and rare high-quality steel only for the teeth (this efficient use of rare metal is also the driving force behind the design of the katana). This is harder to make than a full-steel tool. Japanese saws are typically very thin, again requiring much less metal. This means that the saws cut on a pull stroke, rather than a push stroke like European saws. Since the saw is much more flexible this requires more skill. But you end up with a very thin kerf and minimal waste. Much traditional Japanese carpentry involves complex joints made of hardwood, not typically fastened with metal (e.g., nails, screws). The amount of slop you’d see in an 18th-century metal-fastened European joint would have been unthinkable to a contemporaneous Japanese carpenter.

steve_adams_86 3y ago
To your last point, some of the joinery used at that time was absolutely beautiful and required levels of skill many modern wood workers will never attain. It’s fascinating how much precision was necessary to make such ornate joints work. And they were even perfectly functional, too. I tried my hand at a few for years and never produced anything worth using in a project around my home. I’m nothing like good at wood working, but it was humbling anyway. They did so much more than I can with a lot less than I’ve got. I guess they had time, mentors, and a culture valuing skilled craftsmanship on their side.
- jfoutz 3y ago
  You tried longer than I did. maybe 2 years or so, probably less. I do really like my cheap double sided pull saw. I don't think I realized how much extra control I have with that longer handle, till I read some of the links that talk about different handle attachments. I also found it quite humbling. But I take a little comfort in, that was their job, man. It's our hobby. I tell myself if I spent 10 years at that instead of poking at computers, I'd do a lot better. (That may not be true, but it's what I tell myself)

horrysith 3y ago

[flagged]

FrostKiwi 3y ago

Surprised to see this posted here, as I recently took care of one. Brought an Ooga for a friend via plane from Japan to Germany, to be used for building Clavichords [1] in Venice of all things. Barely fit into our travel bag and looked ridiculous at check-in. Fun times. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clavichord https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clavichord

joeblubaugh 3y ago

What is the deal with the Sowell quote? Not much to do with saw design

WillAdams 3y ago

While I'm fond of Japanese (and Korean) chisels, the planes and saws are quite tied to Japanese/Korean/Chinese workholding techniques which I'm not quite flexible enough for these days (even though I still often sit on the floor in my living room to use a computer). An interesting alternative (and high-tech) approach is the Jointmaker Pro from Bridge City Tool Works: https://bridgecitytools.com/collections/jointmaker-pro https://bridgecitytools.com/collections/jointmaker-pro which turns the saw upside down, and instead has one moving the stock past it. I find it quite handy for cutting apart boxes made on my CNC machines: https://community.carbide3d.com/t/cutting-boxes-and-a-new-toy/66302 https://community.carbide3d.com/t/cutting-boxes-and-a-new-to... Originally founded by John Economaki: https://www.woodworkersjournal.com/john-economaki-designer-of-tools/ https://www.woodworkersjournal.com/john-economaki-designer-o... the company has since been acquired by a Chinese company and production has shifted to China --- daily sales have become a central aspect of the company's business model --- they seem to use them for ensuring cash flow (often a given item has a limited number available, so FOMO drives purchasing) and adjusting inventory (though that latter is just a reasonable surmise).

badcppdev 3y ago

From the first caption: "She is no doubt waiting for her husband to pause his file work ...snip... Some things never change with time or place, so she probably isn’t standing there silently, but I will leave the subject of the one-sided conversation to Gentle Reader’s imagination." It's funny but I look at that picture and think they could be a happy couple talking to each other. It's a pity that the website owner chose to insert a stereotyped assumption.

ninininino 3y ago

There's an incredible new ultralight titanium folding bow saw called the Brautigam BEW saw made by a cottage gear maker called Brautigam expedition works if anyone is in the market for a new backpacking saw. You can store extra blades inside of the saw itself when its in collapsed form and the quality to weight ratio is pretty incredible.