5 ms·

Association between cannabis use and subjective cognitive decline

41 points by delichon 3y ago

cultofmetatron 3y ago
"self reported... thats how we ended up with the mental state of our two current presidential candidates
neildegen11 3y ago
I can agree with this claim, however i think it's subjective to individuals
- AlecSchueler 3y ago
  That's why the call it subjective decline.
u320 3y ago
Associated with implies no causality, but of course everybody knows that, right?
j4hdufd8 3y ago
Just to be clear, 96% decreased odds of cognitive decline = good? Rather confusing way to put it
- dougmwne 3y ago
  No, of subjective cognitive decline. Not decline as measured through testing, decline as self-reported. Basically pot makes you less self-aware.
  - gjvc 3y ago
    Basically pot makes you less self-aware. Which is exactly the effect some people are seeking with it.
  - krisoft 3y ago
    > Basically pot makes you less self-aware. That is one interpretation, yes. But not the only possible one. Is it good? Maybe. Maybe not good but neutral. Maybe actually bad. More research is needed.
  - hsnewman 3y ago
    That is not what is being said.
  - wsintra2022 3y ago
    My personal experience and in some cases a negative one. Cannabis makes me hyper self aware to the point of over analyzing myself.
- fnordlord 3y ago
  Thanks. I was having such a hard time parsing this that I was beginning to have my own experience of subjective cognitive decline. Glad to know I'm not alone. So those that get stoned are more confident in their mind's ability than those that don't?
- qntmfred 3y ago
  confusing maybe if you haven't smoked a bowl yet this morning...
Sytten 3y ago
> The reason for cannabis use, but not frequency and method, is associated with SCD. Further research is needed to investigate the mechanisms that may contribute to the observed associations between non-medical cannabis use and decreased odds of SCD.
- grugagag 3y ago
  What is SCD?
  - wsintra2022 3y ago
    Subjective cannabis delinquency
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - kossamums 3y ago
    Subjective Cognitive Decline (SCD) refers to an individual's self-perceived experience of worsening or more frequent confusion and memory loss, not necessarily confirmed by clinical diagnostics.
mmsc 3y ago
Subjective Cognitive Decline (SCD) is the self-reported experience of worsening or more frequent confusion or memory loss. Lower odds is seemingly a good thing (if you’re somebody that enjoys retaining memory)
- alwayslikethis 3y ago
  The issue with this is if you have memory loss, you may also have memory loss about the memory loss, so lower numbers here may actually not reflect a real increase in memory retention.
cachvico 3y ago
"Stoners deny cannabis bad"
AeroNotix 3y ago
I wonder if it's related to the fact stoners are likely to go to bed on time.
- _joel 3y ago
  I think that depends on the usage and what they're smoking tbf. Weed can play havok with sleep or be an aid.
somenameforme 3y ago
Subjective cognitive decline is a 'subjective' because it is perceived by the individual themselves. This means one of: 1) Weed dramatically reduces cognitive impairment. 2) Weed dramatically reduces an individual's ability to accurately asses their cognitive ability. 3) People who use weed are, for some other reason, dramatically less likely to suffer from cognitive impairment, or dramatically less able to accurately evaluate their own cognitive state. 4) The study itself is biased or flawed somehow.
- Handprint4469 3y ago
  From my personal experience, having several friends that have been smoking since high school up to now (mid 30s), it's definitely 2).
  - jstanley 3y ago
    But maybe having friends who smoke weed dramatically reduces your ability to assess your friends' assessment of their own cognitive ability.
    - Handprint4469 3y ago
      Indeed, touché
  - rvnx 3y ago
    The study is really broken from the beginning: ask someone who take drugs to assess their own capacities, instead of measuring those from an objective perspective. Obviously, "yes cannabis affects your ability to self-report your cognitive abilities"; it's a psychoactive drug that is mainly used for its cognitive effects, it's the main use/"advantage" of it ! (more rarely for pain management) It's like if you ask alkaloidal cocaine (crack) users how they feel about their abilities. They may report amazing bodily control enhancement, and seen from the outside it may be very different. Even alcohol users, at the exit of night clubs, you sometimes see them report self-report increased abilities and decide to drive. In that case, asking them to self-report doesn't give you much info on their actual abilities.
avg_dev 3y ago
A few thoughts after having read only the abstract: 1. The decline (which is reported to be less frequent in cannabis users) is self-reported subjective cognitive decline based on users’ experience. 2. I think that one of the hallmarks of cannabis use is an immediate decline in short-term memory. I believe this usually reverses itself after some time (hours or days). 3. I have used a lot of cannabis in the past. I stopped entirely - for now - for quite some time and I think my mental acuity is currently at its peak over my lifetime and may be growing. 4. Not only is cannabis a very highly cultivated plant whose potency has been increasing a lot for decades (citation needed), there are a ton of cannabis-derived products out there today that have just a ton of THC, way more than one could get by smoking even the highest potency bud. I think this has prohably changed the game entirely. I used a few of them and I would absolutely recommend caution, far beyond the legitimate caution I would recommend for even smoking cannabis bud.
- verticalscaler 3y ago
  Yes, much has changed since the time of Dave. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ACfNSqsi_mE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ACfNSqsi_mE Probably your last point is key. Even a little dab will do ya nowadays or you'll forget what I was talking about. Wait.
  - avg_dev 3y ago
    Great clip…
  - latchkey 3y ago
    I see your Dave and send you love from Sister Mary Elephant... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ftds_ae072M https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ftds_ae072M
bigyikes 3y ago
Cognitive decline is scary, because if it happens gradually enough, you wouldn’t even realize it’s happening. Was I sharper a few years ago? Maybe, I really couldn’t tell you, and it’s not like I’ve been taking cognitive evaluations to check. Scary thoughts.
pluc 3y ago
That's odd considering cannabis use was shown to decrease REM sleep and thus memory processing and consolidation.
- tgv 3y ago
  First: REM sleep etc. is not a proven cause-effect relation. Second: THC or some other compound might negatively affect that. Third: cognitive decline is broader than memory. Fourth: it was self-reported impression of cognitive decline. I don't think there's reason to expect any relation between REM sleep and the outcome to hold.
- bloopernova 3y ago
  Yeah, that's a real annoyance if you're using cannabis to help manage pain.
- InSteady 3y ago
  CBD on the other hand in "mid range" doses decreases REM sleep latency and (any dose?) also decreases REM sleep suppression related to anxiety. This is something that I imagine needs more study, as there is a huge variability in THC to CBD ratios in legally available cannabis. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8116407 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8116407 Although most recreational cannabis is high THC : low CBD, there is ever-growing demand for more balanced strains. There's no telling what the average looks like in black and grey markets (although high THC is certainly the default assumption given its intoxicating effects). Before we make blanket statements about the impact of cannabis on sleep, we should probably seek to answer questions like, what is the overall impact on REM sleep with cannabis that has a 4:1 ratio of THC to CBD or lower?
INTPenis 3y ago
Weed just makes you care less about completing the cognitive exercises of the exam.
antiquark 3y ago
How does subjective decline correlate with objective decline, amongst stoners?
Lapel2742 3y ago
From reading the abstract. > Compared to non-users, non-medical cannabis use was significantly associated with 96% decreased odds of SCD (aOR=0.04, 95% CI=0.01-0.44, p<.01). Medical (aOR=0.46, 95% CI=0.06-3.61, p=.46) and dual medical and non-medical use (aOR=0.30, 95% CI=0.03-2.92, p=.30) were also associated with decreased odds of SCD, although not significant. I'm not a native speaker but if non-medical use of cannabis has a different outcome than medical and mixed use than it seems plausible that there are other - more important - factors at play or do I misunderstand the paragraph?
datameta 3y ago
If continuous use removes all possibility for being bored, or displaces your hobbies instead of enhancing them, then cognitive progress is stagnated, imo.

41 points by delichon 3y ago

cultofmetatron 3y ago

"self reported... thats how we ended up with the mental state of our two current presidential candidates

neildegen11 3y ago

I can agree with this claim, however i think it's subjective to individuals

AlecSchueler 3y ago
That's why the call it subjective decline.

u320 3y ago

Associated with implies no causality, but of course everybody knows that, right?

j4hdufd8 3y ago

Just to be clear, 96% decreased odds of cognitive decline = good? Rather confusing way to put it

dougmwne 3y ago
No, of subjective cognitive decline. Not decline as measured through testing, decline as self-reported. Basically pot makes you less self-aware.
- gjvc 3y ago
  Basically pot makes you less self-aware. Which is exactly the effect some people are seeking with it.
- krisoft 3y ago
  > Basically pot makes you less self-aware. That is one interpretation, yes. But not the only possible one. Is it good? Maybe. Maybe not good but neutral. Maybe actually bad. More research is needed.
- hsnewman 3y ago
  That is not what is being said.
- wsintra2022 3y ago
  My personal experience and in some cases a negative one. Cannabis makes me hyper self aware to the point of over analyzing myself.
fnordlord 3y ago
Thanks. I was having such a hard time parsing this that I was beginning to have my own experience of subjective cognitive decline. Glad to know I'm not alone. So those that get stoned are more confident in their mind's ability than those that don't?
qntmfred 3y ago
confusing maybe if you haven't smoked a bowl yet this morning...

Sytten 3y ago

> The reason for cannabis use, but not frequency and method, is associated with SCD. Further research is needed to investigate the mechanisms that may contribute to the observed associations between non-medical cannabis use and decreased odds of SCD.

grugagag 3y ago
What is SCD?
- wsintra2022 3y ago
  Subjective cannabis delinquency
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- kossamums 3y ago
  Subjective Cognitive Decline (SCD) refers to an individual's self-perceived experience of worsening or more frequent confusion and memory loss, not necessarily confirmed by clinical diagnostics.

mmsc 3y ago

Subjective Cognitive Decline (SCD) is the self-reported experience of worsening or more frequent confusion or memory loss. Lower odds is seemingly a good thing (if you’re somebody that enjoys retaining memory)

alwayslikethis 3y ago
The issue with this is if you have memory loss, you may also have memory loss about the memory loss, so lower numbers here may actually not reflect a real increase in memory retention.

cachvico 3y ago

"Stoners deny cannabis bad"

AeroNotix 3y ago

I wonder if it's related to the fact stoners are likely to go to bed on time.

_joel 3y ago
I think that depends on the usage and what they're smoking tbf. Weed can play havok with sleep or be an aid.

somenameforme 3y ago

Subjective cognitive decline is a 'subjective' because it is perceived by the individual themselves. This means one of: 1) Weed dramatically reduces cognitive impairment. 2) Weed dramatically reduces an individual's ability to accurately asses their cognitive ability. 3) People who use weed are, for some other reason, dramatically less likely to suffer from cognitive impairment, or dramatically less able to accurately evaluate their own cognitive state. 4) The study itself is biased or flawed somehow.

Handprint4469 3y ago
From my personal experience, having several friends that have been smoking since high school up to now (mid 30s), it's definitely 2).
- jstanley 3y ago
  But maybe having friends who smoke weed dramatically reduces your ability to assess your friends' assessment of their own cognitive ability.
  - Handprint4469 3y ago
    Indeed, touché
- rvnx 3y ago
  The study is really broken from the beginning: ask someone who take drugs to assess their own capacities, instead of measuring those from an objective perspective. Obviously, "yes cannabis affects your ability to self-report your cognitive abilities"; it's a psychoactive drug that is mainly used for its cognitive effects, it's the main use/"advantage" of it ! (more rarely for pain management) It's like if you ask alkaloidal cocaine (crack) users how they feel about their abilities. They may report amazing bodily control enhancement, and seen from the outside it may be very different. Even alcohol users, at the exit of night clubs, you sometimes see them report self-report increased abilities and decide to drive. In that case, asking them to self-report doesn't give you much info on their actual abilities.

avg_dev 3y ago

A few thoughts after having read only the abstract: 1. The decline (which is reported to be less frequent in cannabis users) is self-reported subjective cognitive decline based on users’ experience. 2. I think that one of the hallmarks of cannabis use is an immediate decline in short-term memory. I believe this usually reverses itself after some time (hours or days). 3. I have used a lot of cannabis in the past. I stopped entirely - for now - for quite some time and I think my mental acuity is currently at its peak over my lifetime and may be growing. 4. Not only is cannabis a very highly cultivated plant whose potency has been increasing a lot for decades (citation needed), there are a ton of cannabis-derived products out there today that have just a ton of THC, way more than one could get by smoking even the highest potency bud. I think this has prohably changed the game entirely. I used a few of them and I would absolutely recommend caution, far beyond the legitimate caution I would recommend for even smoking cannabis bud.

verticalscaler 3y ago
Yes, much has changed since the time of Dave. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ACfNSqsi_mE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ACfNSqsi_mE Probably your last point is key. Even a little dab will do ya nowadays or you'll forget what I was talking about. Wait.
- avg_dev 3y ago
  Great clip…
- latchkey 3y ago
  I see your Dave and send you love from Sister Mary Elephant... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ftds_ae072M https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ftds_ae072M

bigyikes 3y ago

Cognitive decline is scary, because if it happens gradually enough, you wouldn’t even realize it’s happening. Was I sharper a few years ago? Maybe, I really couldn’t tell you, and it’s not like I’ve been taking cognitive evaluations to check. Scary thoughts.

pluc 3y ago

That's odd considering cannabis use was shown to decrease REM sleep and thus memory processing and consolidation.

tgv 3y ago
First: REM sleep etc. is not a proven cause-effect relation. Second: THC or some other compound might negatively affect that. Third: cognitive decline is broader than memory. Fourth: it was self-reported impression of cognitive decline. I don't think there's reason to expect any relation between REM sleep and the outcome to hold.
bloopernova 3y ago
Yeah, that's a real annoyance if you're using cannabis to help manage pain.
InSteady 3y ago
CBD on the other hand in "mid range" doses decreases REM sleep latency and (any dose?) also decreases REM sleep suppression related to anxiety. This is something that I imagine needs more study, as there is a huge variability in THC to CBD ratios in legally available cannabis. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8116407 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8116407 Although most recreational cannabis is high THC : low CBD, there is ever-growing demand for more balanced strains. There's no telling what the average looks like in black and grey markets (although high THC is certainly the default assumption given its intoxicating effects). Before we make blanket statements about the impact of cannabis on sleep, we should probably seek to answer questions like, what is the overall impact on REM sleep with cannabis that has a 4:1 ratio of THC to CBD or lower?

INTPenis 3y ago

Weed just makes you care less about completing the cognitive exercises of the exam.

antiquark 3y ago

How does subjective decline correlate with objective decline, amongst stoners?

Lapel2742 3y ago

From reading the abstract. > Compared to non-users, non-medical cannabis use was significantly associated with 96% decreased odds of SCD (aOR=0.04, 95% CI=0.01-0.44, p<.01). Medical (aOR=0.46, 95% CI=0.06-3.61, p=.46) and dual medical and non-medical use (aOR=0.30, 95% CI=0.03-2.92, p=.30) were also associated with decreased odds of SCD, although not significant. I'm not a native speaker but if non-medical use of cannabis has a different outcome than medical and mixed use than it seems plausible that there are other - more important - factors at play or do I misunderstand the paragraph?

datameta 3y ago

If continuous use removes all possibility for being bored, or displaces your hobbies instead of enhancing them, then cognitive progress is stagnated, imo.