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So if you believed the plasma is from UFOs and not just another black project, you are welcome to keep believing this? That makes zero sense. I would imagine a

by Cacti 3y ago

So if you believed the plasma is from UFOs and not just another black project, you are welcome to keep believing this? That makes zero sense. I would imagine an alien civilization playing tag with the USN would have shown up on other locations or observations. The fact that these observations associated with the USN aren’t collaborated anywhere else in this reported is a good indication they are not from aliens, and one SHOULD absolutely revise ones opinion about the reddit hoopla over some plasma weapons. Which was, frankly, always wildly unsupported. The only way that this report is unrelated to the USN stuff is if you choose to believe it’s unrelated. In reality this is just yet more evidence that aliens aren’t like hanging out off the coast of California. For which there has never been any evidence, unless you count speculation as evidence. Repeat after me: there are no little green men playing flashlight tag off of southern california. The USN is doing weapons tests. The haven’t confirmed it because, you know, it’s a black project.

h2odragon 3y ago
How about this interpretation? There's so much bullshit being spewed by all participants in the debate that finding out any Truth is going to require personal effort beyond what I care to expend. Therefore, I will continue to believe (on this subject) that I Do Not Know wtf is going on. The best part of the "UFO" debate, for me, is the flames and the fervor of all these folks who really, really need to convince others that they're right. On both sides. And What if they are? It still ain't gonna patch the roof or plow the back 40. (I'm in the "crazy views" section of the audience, i guess)
- Cacti 3y ago
  I hate to break it to you but the amount of bullshit on each side is not even remotely equally distributed. There is an extraordinary claim with zero hard evidence. And there is a mountain of claimed evidence, all of which has been debunked. If we ran into aliens, there wouldn’t be any doubt about it for more than a week or two. You may find both sides plausible, but the difference between plausible and likely is the difference between superstition and science. Aliens are plausible. But so are fairies, faster than light travel, and string theory. That doesn’t mean they’re likely.
  - blooalien 3y ago
    > That doesn’t mean they’re likely. Oh, but they are indeed "likely" (statistically speaking, considering the vastness of the Universe, and this planet being proof positive of life existing in that vastness), but aliens visiting here seems much less likely to me (again, given the vastness of the Universe). > “Space is big. You just won't believe how vastly, hugely, mind-bogglingly big it is. I mean, you may think it's a long way down the road to the chemist's, but that's just peanuts to space.” ― Douglas Adams
    - Cacti 3y ago
      We were talking specifically about aliens visiting California. Not the existence of life elsewhere in the universe.
      - blooalien 3y ago
        I find it extremely doubtful aliens are visiting Earth, due partly to many of the same reasons others here mention, but mostly because of the vastness of distances involved and the whole "speed of light" situation as we understand it thus far. Of course there's a whole mess of "quantum" stuff we still don't understand which could potentially make me entirely wrong about that, and there could be aliens "popping in" (and out) on a regular basis for all I know. I'm just a teensy speck of barely conscious "meat" in all this giant Universe. What do I know? Very little, really... ;)
- blooalien 3y ago
  > The best part of the "UFO" debate, for me, is the flames and the fervor of all these folks who really, really need to convince others that they're right. On both sides. And What if they are? It still ain't gonna patch the roof or plow the back 40. > (I'm in the "crazy views" section of the audience, i guess) At least you're not alone there. I'm right there with ya, brother (or sister, or little green alien, hell I dunno; It's the Internet; You're an "Internet person" somewhere "out there" in "the cloud"). ;)
- keepamovin 3y ago
  This is a fairly rational view that acknowledges your own limitations (or limited attention budget to invest in this topic), and accepts that given the high levels of disinformation, you'll be unlikely to reach any reasonable conclusions without a big effort. I think this makes sense if you don't want to put in the time/effort to study it yourself, this rational approach of withholding judgement is commendable. It's a sad testament to the polluted nature of this essential topic that this is where it is tho: that without dedicate effort you are unlikely to gain real insight. We can think of this as if an effective "topic area denial" has been placed over this topic, obstructing any but the most focused/talented efforts to obtain information. I think that says something, too: why expend so much treasure to create confusion about something if there's nothing to hide?
  - Cacti 3y ago
    > why expend so much treasure to create confusion about something if there's nothing to hide? for the millionth time, there IS something to hide. classified weapons research. how can tech people be so willfully oblivious about this. there is no topic area denial or whatever you’re talking about. no one is stopping anyone from discussing it, claiming anything, or publishing anything. there were hearings in congress for gods sake. what exactly do you think is being covered up here? what’s happening is that the people who believe are upset that no one accepts their evidence. that’s all it is. this is not a both sides are equal situation. there is one side who knows the evidence to date is insufficient, and there is everyone else. disinformation isn’t the issue. obfuscation isn’t the issue. cultural stigma isn’t the issue. the issue is that the evidence is crap. if you want to have people accept crap for evidence, pick something less titanic than the first evidence of intelligent life outside of earth, maybe try something smaller first like your aunt betty was talking shit about uncle joe. people will accept crap evidence for something like that.
    - keepamovin 3y ago
      Sure, there's that to hide, but two key points: 1) it doesn't mean there's not anything else to hide. No obliviousness about that, the only obliviousness seems to be yours when you think that you can't have more Categories of hidden things, Cacti haha! :) and 2) given that counterintelligence (CI) disinformation is used to protect classified weapons systems, it erodes your point that there's no disinfo or obfuscation. > there is no topic area denial or whatever you’re talking about. no one is stopping anyone from discussing it, claiming anything, or publishing anything. there were hearings in congress for gods sake. what exactly do you think is being covered up here? Your tone is a little bit hysterical. A desperation that erodes the seeming sureness with which you intend your words. Given that this topic has a documented history of being targeted with disinformation and counterintelligence (Blue Book, AARO), your assertion rings hollow. Combine that with how the people present at the hearings in congress (including congressfolk themselves) have spoken multiple times about there being a coverup, and being stopped from discussing it (in a classified settings, SCIF denial), and that DOPSA has held up Grusch's op-ed, your take comes across as somewhat misinformed of the facts, to put it lightly. I get it's possible to have that take from a distance, and even desirable. Doing so prevents you from having to update your priors or worldview to include what is understably very difficult-to-process information, to put it lightly. If that's what you're struggling with, there's no shame in that. Just take it at your own pace. But try not to be abusive to other people with these types of hysterical outbursts and weak assertions aggressively offered. The implication of your words is that anyone who takes this topic with the seriousness it deserves, is some sort of cretin. That's not a very nice thing to say, but I get it could be compensatory for you. I also get that from a distance it could be easy to form that opinion of this topic, because that opinion directly reflects the CI disinfo about this topic, that aims to discourage people from discussing it seriously by convincing them that only cretins would do so. It's also incorrect. If you're up to it, it's a challenging intellectual engagement. One I think you'd be worthy of, once you calm down hahahaha! :) I'm sure you might find this offensive but if you want to take it slow, it would be better to hold your tongue in public than speak about things you don't know, because I think that would only weaken the bubble you put around yourself, which is counter to your objective of protecting yourself from awareness of this reality. Anyway, your view is a little bit behind the times of where the reality of this topic is, right now. I am thrilled however that you found my comment such a challenge to your (admittedly, I'm sorry to say) archaic view of this topic, that you were spurred to respond haha! :) > what’s happening is that the people who believe are upset that no one accepts their evidence. that’s all it is. this is not a both sides are equal situation. there is one side who knows the evidence to date is insufficient, and there is everyone else. There's truth to that. But it's not the whole picture. The "evidence" is actually really good, even in the open. The classified evidence is also really good. It's not actually a data problem. But I get you could be misled by the evidence seeming crap, if you start with a crap dataset: take all the good data and mix it in with lots of crap (obvious fakes, obvious balloons), and you get an incorrect picture that the data is crap. That poisoning the evidence is actually one of the pillars of the disinformation CI activity on this topic. The fact that your viewpoint of denial carves out so nicely the contours of the disinfo in reverse makes me think you have a background in information warfare that you aren't sharing haha! :) > disinformation isn’t the issue. obfuscation isn’t the issue. cultural stigma isn’t the issue. These things are issues, and are meant to be issues. There are released government reports of the past where it's stated the CI objective is to persuade the public the topic is too ridiculous to discuss, in order to protect against public discovery of realities around it. Even among skeptics the disinfo CI of this topic is well established. > if you want to have people accept crap for evidence, pick something less titanic than the first evidence of intelligent life outside of earth, maybe try something smaller first like your aunt betty was talking shit about uncle joe. people will accept crap evidence for something like that. Hahaha! Dude maybe you're talking about your own life there, but I think you're just not informed of this topic. Unfortunately, it is not an "evidence issue", but that is a common CI/disinfo talking point.

by Cacti 3y ago

h2odragon 3y ago

How about this interpretation? There's so much bullshit being spewed by all participants in the debate that finding out any Truth is going to require personal effort beyond what I care to expend. Therefore, I will continue to believe (on this subject) that I Do Not Know wtf is going on. The best part of the "UFO" debate, for me, is the flames and the fervor of all these folks who really, really need to convince others that they're right. On both sides. And What if they are? It still ain't gonna patch the roof or plow the back 40. (I'm in the "crazy views" section of the audience, i guess)

Cacti 3y ago
I hate to break it to you but the amount of bullshit on each side is not even remotely equally distributed. There is an extraordinary claim with zero hard evidence. And there is a mountain of claimed evidence, all of which has been debunked. If we ran into aliens, there wouldn’t be any doubt about it for more than a week or two. You may find both sides plausible, but the difference between plausible and likely is the difference between superstition and science. Aliens are plausible. But so are fairies, faster than light travel, and string theory. That doesn’t mean they’re likely.
- blooalien 3y ago
  > That doesn’t mean they’re likely. Oh, but they are indeed "likely" (statistically speaking, considering the vastness of the Universe, and this planet being proof positive of life existing in that vastness), but aliens visiting here seems much less likely to me (again, given the vastness of the Universe). > “Space is big. You just won't believe how vastly, hugely, mind-bogglingly big it is. I mean, you may think it's a long way down the road to the chemist's, but that's just peanuts to space.” ― Douglas Adams
  - Cacti 3y ago
    We were talking specifically about aliens visiting California. Not the existence of life elsewhere in the universe.
    - blooalien 3y ago
      I find it extremely doubtful aliens are visiting Earth, due partly to many of the same reasons others here mention, but mostly because of the vastness of distances involved and the whole "speed of light" situation as we understand it thus far. Of course there's a whole mess of "quantum" stuff we still don't understand which could potentially make me entirely wrong about that, and there could be aliens "popping in" (and out) on a regular basis for all I know. I'm just a teensy speck of barely conscious "meat" in all this giant Universe. What do I know? Very little, really... ;)
blooalien 3y ago
> The best part of the "UFO" debate, for me, is the flames and the fervor of all these folks who really, really need to convince others that they're right. On both sides. And What if they are? It still ain't gonna patch the roof or plow the back 40. > (I'm in the "crazy views" section of the audience, i guess) At least you're not alone there. I'm right there with ya, brother (or sister, or little green alien, hell I dunno; It's the Internet; You're an "Internet person" somewhere "out there" in "the cloud"). ;)
keepamovin 3y ago
This is a fairly rational view that acknowledges your own limitations (or limited attention budget to invest in this topic), and accepts that given the high levels of disinformation, you'll be unlikely to reach any reasonable conclusions without a big effort. I think this makes sense if you don't want to put in the time/effort to study it yourself, this rational approach of withholding judgement is commendable. It's a sad testament to the polluted nature of this essential topic that this is where it is tho: that without dedicate effort you are unlikely to gain real insight. We can think of this as if an effective "topic area denial" has been placed over this topic, obstructing any but the most focused/talented efforts to obtain information. I think that says something, too: why expend so much treasure to create confusion about something if there's nothing to hide?
- Cacti 3y ago
  > why expend so much treasure to create confusion about something if there's nothing to hide? for the millionth time, there IS something to hide. classified weapons research. how can tech people be so willfully oblivious about this. there is no topic area denial or whatever you’re talking about. no one is stopping anyone from discussing it, claiming anything, or publishing anything. there were hearings in congress for gods sake. what exactly do you think is being covered up here? what’s happening is that the people who believe are upset that no one accepts their evidence. that’s all it is. this is not a both sides are equal situation. there is one side who knows the evidence to date is insufficient, and there is everyone else. disinformation isn’t the issue. obfuscation isn’t the issue. cultural stigma isn’t the issue. the issue is that the evidence is crap. if you want to have people accept crap for evidence, pick something less titanic than the first evidence of intelligent life outside of earth, maybe try something smaller first like your aunt betty was talking shit about uncle joe. people will accept crap evidence for something like that.
  - keepamovin 3y ago
    Sure, there's that to hide, but two key points: 1) it doesn't mean there's not anything else to hide. No obliviousness about that, the only obliviousness seems to be yours when you think that you can't have more Categories of hidden things, Cacti haha! :) and 2) given that counterintelligence (CI) disinformation is used to protect classified weapons systems, it erodes your point that there's no disinfo or obfuscation. > there is no topic area denial or whatever you’re talking about. no one is stopping anyone from discussing it, claiming anything, or publishing anything. there were hearings in congress for gods sake. what exactly do you think is being covered up here? Your tone is a little bit hysterical. A desperation that erodes the seeming sureness with which you intend your words. Given that this topic has a documented history of being targeted with disinformation and counterintelligence (Blue Book, AARO), your assertion rings hollow. Combine that with how the people present at the hearings in congress (including congressfolk themselves) have spoken multiple times about there being a coverup, and being stopped from discussing it (in a classified settings, SCIF denial), and that DOPSA has held up Grusch's op-ed, your take comes across as somewhat misinformed of the facts, to put it lightly. I get it's possible to have that take from a distance, and even desirable. Doing so prevents you from having to update your priors or worldview to include what is understably very difficult-to-process information, to put it lightly. If that's what you're struggling with, there's no shame in that. Just take it at your own pace. But try not to be abusive to other people with these types of hysterical outbursts and weak assertions aggressively offered. The implication of your words is that anyone who takes this topic with the seriousness it deserves, is some sort of cretin. That's not a very nice thing to say, but I get it could be compensatory for you. I also get that from a distance it could be easy to form that opinion of this topic, because that opinion directly reflects the CI disinfo about this topic, that aims to discourage people from discussing it seriously by convincing them that only cretins would do so. It's also incorrect. If you're up to it, it's a challenging intellectual engagement. One I think you'd be worthy of, once you calm down hahahaha! :) I'm sure you might find this offensive but if you want to take it slow, it would be better to hold your tongue in public than speak about things you don't know, because I think that would only weaken the bubble you put around yourself, which is counter to your objective of protecting yourself from awareness of this reality. Anyway, your view is a little bit behind the times of where the reality of this topic is, right now. I am thrilled however that you found my comment such a challenge to your (admittedly, I'm sorry to say) archaic view of this topic, that you were spurred to respond haha! :) > what’s happening is that the people who believe are upset that no one accepts their evidence. that’s all it is. this is not a both sides are equal situation. there is one side who knows the evidence to date is insufficient, and there is everyone else. There's truth to that. But it's not the whole picture. The "evidence" is actually really good, even in the open. The classified evidence is also really good. It's not actually a data problem. But I get you could be misled by the evidence seeming crap, if you start with a crap dataset: take all the good data and mix it in with lots of crap (obvious fakes, obvious balloons), and you get an incorrect picture that the data is crap. That poisoning the evidence is actually one of the pillars of the disinformation CI activity on this topic. The fact that your viewpoint of denial carves out so nicely the contours of the disinfo in reverse makes me think you have a background in information warfare that you aren't sharing haha! :) > disinformation isn’t the issue. obfuscation isn’t the issue. cultural stigma isn’t the issue. These things are issues, and are meant to be issues. There are released government reports of the past where it's stated the CI objective is to persuade the public the topic is too ridiculous to discuss, in order to protect against public discovery of realities around it. Even among skeptics the disinfo CI of this topic is well established. > if you want to have people accept crap for evidence, pick something less titanic than the first evidence of intelligent life outside of earth, maybe try something smaller first like your aunt betty was talking shit about uncle joe. people will accept crap evidence for something like that. Hahaha! Dude maybe you're talking about your own life there, but I think you're just not informed of this topic. Unfortunately, it is not an "evidence issue", but that is a common CI/disinfo talking point.