10 ms·
Google confirmed it 'terminated' an employee who staged a protest against Israel
- ericfrazier 3y ago[flagged]
- pwb25 3y agothe american at will system at work. I dont judge the content of the protest itself, but that you can be fired for political beliefes is crazy to me as a european
- rzimmerman 3y agoHe wasn’t fired for his beliefs. He was fired for screaming and interrupting a coworker’s presentation in a public setting.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- willmadden 3y agoPeople are jailed for their political beliefs throughout most of Europe.
- HL33tibCe7 3y agoNot just political beliefs. In many countries in Europe you can be jailed merely for sending an “offensive” message.
- pwb25 3y agoNot if they are following the law no
- willmadden 3y agoSee, you've got that backwards. If your government makes specific political beliefs illegal, and sends you to jail for expressing them, then you are not free.
- sgift 3y ago> You can be jailed for your political beliefs throughout most of Europe. Uh ... since when?
- int_19h 3y agoHolocaust denial (which is definitely politics, even though it's the despicable kind) is criminal in most of Europe: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legality_of_Holocaust_denial#By_Country https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legality_of_Holocaust_denial#B... Some European states also ban left-wing political symbols: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bans_on_communist_symbols https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bans_on_communist_symbols
- sgift 3y agoNone of that is jailing for a political belief. You mix beliefs and actions.
- int_19h 3y agoIt is an expression of political belief, which is what is normally meant in such contexts. I don't see much point in detangling the two, as belief that is not expressed is by definition something that you cannot act against since you don't know about it.
- tyleo 3y agoIdt it’s political beliefs. The protestor was sorta heckling a presentation to my eye. Edit: This is even brought up in the second bullet of the linked page. > The worker stood and shouted during a presentation by Google Israel's managing director.
- pwb25 3y agook, still way to much to get fired over. one small thing ? lol americans are so sensitive
- brigadier132 3y agoThis kind of behavior doesn't scale. Eventually you have people that just give in to the hysterics because they just want to do their job and not fight ideological battles and the ideologues take over the company. See: how dei took over google and we got gemini.
- hhh 3y agoKeep politics out of the workplace and you won’t have a problem.
- mandmandam 3y agoIf speaking up against supplying surveillance and AI systems (to a state under investigation for genocide) is political, then so is supplying the systems in the first place. If you have an issue with being protested, maybe don't directly assist the world's most live-streamed set of daily atrocities.
- lettergram 3y agolol what? Standing up and yelling during a meeting is probably the tip of the iceberg. They’re also trying to stage protests, etc. Nah this person wasn’t working productively any more, as far as I can tell. Worse, they were reducing productivity of others. Possibly making an unsafe work environment. It’s not about being sensitive or even agreeing. It’s about making product. If we were chopping wood and someone stopped chopping to complain about inner city transit systems. You’d fire them.
- XorNot 3y agoPretty sure you'll be fired for disrupting company events for your political beliefs in the EU as well, which is what this employee did. It would be a different matter if they were simply attending pro-Palestine protests on their own time.
- HL33tibCe7 3y agoI agree with the substance of the protest and frankly I respect the bravery of the person who conducted it. But let’s be realistic here: they were not fired for their views, they were fired for the manner in which they displayed them, which was clearly not appropriate for the workplace, and really left Google no choice but to fire them.
- yunesj 3y ago"an employee disrupted a coworker who was giving a presentation — interfering with an official company-sponsored event"
- djakaitis 3y agoIsn’t it illegal to publicly display any nazi symbols in Germany?
- CapitalistCartr 3y ago"that you can be fired for political beliefes is crazy to me as a european" Many of us Americans do as well, but America's rich love it.
- brink 3y agoCan't you go to jail for saying the wrong thing in Europe?
- fifteen1506 3y agoOnly if you insist on saying Heil Hitler non-stop. Besides that, no. Even then, Nazi salute is being used on my country's parties and everyone shrugs.
- junon 3y agoDepends on the thing and the place. In Germany you cannot do a Sieg Heil salute in public, for obvious reasons - and even that is loosely enforced. But you're absolutely allowed to protest.
- Nexxxeh 3y agoRight to protest is under threat in the UK, but it's a difficult situation. You have XE protestors shutting down infrastructure. You have Pro-Palestinian/Pro-Hamas marchers chanting extremist stuff like "From London to Gaza, Victory to the intifada", "We will honour all our martyrs", "Praise the martyrs" and "From the river to the sea". The whole hate speech/free speech thing, and at what point is calling for and glorifying terrorism, and do we as a society allow that? It's not helped by our incompetent and corrupt government whose primary base is the worst stereotype little Englander. Our police whose handling of protestors ranges from ineffective to Orwellian. I'm generally pro-Civ-Lib and hands-off, but at this point, it's difficult. We need to have an adult conversation as a country about where we draw lines, lest we allow extremism to fester or allow authoritarianism to raise its ugly head. But we're utterly incapable of having an adult conversation about anything. This may change after the general election later in the year, but... It's a hope rather than a certainty.
- FirmwareBurner 3y agoPlease stop generalizing. As a an european you definitely CAN be fired here for political beliefs if they impact work. Actually you can be fired for anything. Come to Austria and see. You're not allowed to bring your political beliefs at work, which IMHO is best for everyone. Keep them at home/your private time. Same for religion, sexuality, etc. Your workplace is not your market square for your personal beliefs and activism.
- truckerbill 3y agoThis behaviour is itself inherently good for authoritarian regimes though. You can’t escape politics
- FirmwareBurner 3y agoYes you can. Nobody's stopping you from engaging in politics outsider of work(go vote, write to your congressman, go protest, etc), and nobody'd forcing you to work at a company that does things you disagree with. But at work, you go to do work in exchange for money. The publicly listed company must do what its shareholders want, it has no obligation to do what its employees want, and as long as the company doesn't break any local government laws and employment laws, then it's in the green. You disagreeing with the company's direction is your own matter to deal with, as in, you are free to walk since the company isn't forcing you to work there against your will. You have no idea what authoritarianism actually means.
- ParetoOptimal 3y agoThey mean that politics and ideology are what your boss is going by to determine whether to give you or your coworker a raise. Or at the least it plays a large part. Even if you dont talk about politics you are subject to the forces of it.
- FirmwareBurner 3y agoBut politics is changed at the voting booths or via engagement with your lawmakers, not wit your employer. Your employer will only follow the laws set by the state, not by the employees (unless we're talking about a cooperative which Google isn't)
- aaron695 3y ago[dead]
- gnfargbl 3y agoHe wasn't fired for his political beliefs. He was fired for persistently heckling a senior leader during a public presentation, which meets anyone's definition of gross insubordination. He could have gone on a tirade about how Google supports putting ketchup on hot dogs and the result would have been the same, in Europe or the US.
- throwaway74432 3y agoDepends. Do we have any examples of Google allowing obnoxious heckling when it is coming from another political belief? Consistency is key.
- madaxe_again 3y agoTo be honest, it doesn’t sound like Google was a good fit for him, given that their whole business is surveillance, with a view to enabling whatever, don’t ask don’t tell, as long as it makes money.
- mandmandam 3y agoSurveillance is one thing. A real problem these days. However, directly assisting live-streamed mass murder with AI systems is quite another.
- flumpcakes 3y ago> However, directly assisting live-streamed mass murder with AI systems is quite another. Do you have a source on google doing this?
- mandmandam 3y agoRead tfa. Project Nimbus.
- flumpcakes 3y agoThe "fucking" article in no way says google is "directly assisting live-streamed mass murder with AI systems". Can you actually provide a source for your spurious claims?
- mandmandam 3y agoI gave you the name of the project, as did tfa. https://theintercept.com/2022/07/24/google-israel-artificial-intelligence-project-nimbus/ https://theintercept.com/2022/07/24/google-israel-artificial... Took two clicks to get there from tfa... Seems like you could do a little more research before insisting it's "spurious" that Google tech is helping Israel do atrocities. Probably worth mentioning Habsora, in case you think Israel would never use AI to kill Palestinian children. Try searching it yourself though, I'm fresh out of free basic research tokens. I'd suggest you use DuckDuckGo.
- gpapilion 3y agoThis reminds me of a situation at Twitter where someone was communicating fearlessly to build trust, but learned as the CEO put it there were still consequences. US companies are going to be weird about this for the next few years. They want to do the profitable thing, but have spent the last decade making workers feel like they have a say. In the end, management and shareholders are in charge, the rest is an illusion.
- fifteen1506 3y agoI think those were the last remnants of the cold war. Now every "commie" tool will have to be used to have a say and hope the privacy is still enough not to be infiltrated by agents provocateurs.
- catchnear4321 3y ago> In the end, management and shareholders are in charge, the rest is an illusion. then let’s skip a few pages and wrap this one up so we can move on to the next book. or maybe write a new one.
- Andrex 3y agoI've seen this kind of thing pop up in forums over the years. Depending on the audience involved, either you start with strong moderation from the start and make no apologies, or you kinda let "the board decide." Invariably in the latter case, users eventually decide they want moderator elections, etc. because they can't trust the system and the moderators allowed dissent. HN takes the former model and it seems to have worked out pretty well.
- hannofcart 3y agoFirstly, for the record, as far as political beliefs go, mine are quite aligned with the protesting employee here. Having said that, Google is entirely right here. The speaker was not some right wing political wingnut from Israel. He was just another employee of Google who happened to be from Israel. And from all the reports I've read, the talk had nothing to do with Middle East politics. Heckling a fellow employee giving a speech just because they're from a country whose government you have policy differences with is like picketing a Chinese restaurant in New York to protest China's aggressive posturing in the South China Sea.
- stuaxo 3y agoThat only works if the Chinese restaurant is supplying the Chinese fleet with a lot of their food.
- madaxe_again 3y agoJust another employee of Google who is heading up a surveillance technology project for a government that many view as regressive and oppressive, to put it mildly.
- mc32 3y agoIt’s pretty crazy that you’d have people protest fellow employees because they are from a country you disagree with. Presumably this protestor while employed by Google would protest its founder and major shareholder as well just because his patents were Russian. It used to be you’d keep politics and religion at home and would not bring them into the workplace. On the other hand these companies encouraged activism over the years and they shouldn’t be surprised when it goes off the rails.
- int_19h 3y agoI agree with your first point, but as for the second, you can't "keep politics at home" when your employer goes there first. Which Google did with Project Nimbus.
- howmayiannoyyou 3y ago
- toomanyrichies 3y agohttps://archive.ph/rZvpO https://archive.ph/rZvpO
- fifteen1506 3y agoSure. Dominance reached, no need to pretend to be fair and thoughtful company. Same as with Elon.
- bradleyjg 3y agoWhat exactly is fair and thoughtful about keeping on an employee that shouts down a company representative giving a public presentation. I don’t understand how anyone could even think a company—or any enterprise—is morally required to pay people that publicly work against its chosen strategy.
- Giorgi 3y ago[flagged]
- fifteen1506 3y ago[flagged]
- ParetoOptimal 3y agoSarcasm, right?
- fifteen1506 3y agoMostly. People tend to dismiss Palestinians deaths 'cause Hamas. Making Palestinians "worth" only 1/14 of the superior nation citizens, Israeli, hopefully highlights what we are doing -- some lives seem to be less worthy than others.
- Giorgi 3y agoThat happens when Palestinians elect HAMAS as their leaders and spit on bodies of dead Festival goers that are paraded in Palestine on the truck.
- fifteen1506 3y agoExactly. 1 Israeli is worth 14 Palestinians. Just what I said before.
- asylteltine 3y ago[dead]
- Avtomatk 3y ago[flagged]
- oldpersonintx 3y ago[dead]
- anonylizard 3y agoWow, so you think everyone must have the right to disrupt other people's lives with force? To block roads, to heckle meetings, is a god given right? If someone wants to be heard, they have like 5 hours after work, an infinite amount of internet forums to spend political battles on, and they can't put their head down at work to just... work?
- ParetoOptimal 3y ago> Wow, so you think everyone must have the right to disrupt other people's lives with force? To block roads, to heckle meetings, is a god given right? Yes, because without it there would be no America, no civil rights act for black people, and women wouldn't be able to vote. Please block my traffic.
- ParetoOptimal 3y ago> they can't put their head down at work to just... work? Thinking about this in the lens of civil rights: > Can't I just enjoy my dinner without these black people coming into the diner to cause a scene for their protest that won't make a difference anyway? Ethics should be considered at all times. So if by putting your head down at work to just work you mean turning a blind eye to ethics I dont care to preserve that right.
- Chris2048 3y ago> unless you stand with some ridiculous little signs and everyone ignores you What is "effective protest" in your view? Purposefully being a nuisance so you can't be ignored?
- 3y ago
- oldpersonintx 3y ago[dead]
- homefree 3y agoThis employee is an idiot and they deserved to be fired. Shouting down others is not speech - it’s censorship, even a company with broad internal speech protections/policy is likely to enforce discourse standards. Google would be better off taking a hard stance here - their culture from the outside seems pretty messed up, they’re going to need to fire a lot more to fix it (starting with their CEO imo). This is independent of the specific views the employee held, though I think those views in this case are also wrong and the company can (and arguably should) fire people who hold views in conflict with the mission, especially when they act to cause problems internally.
- howmayiannoyyou 3y ago[flagged]
- aaomidi 3y agoAnd so many people could say the same about you
- howmayiannoyyou 3y agoThey would be wrong: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=svIa02N6JUo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=svIa02N6JUo
- ParetoOptimal 3y agoI hope you both know its unclear which of you are arguing for/against Palestine in the above comments before clicking the video.
- aaomidi 3y agoI think that’s kinda the point I am trying to make.
- howmayiannoyyou 3y ago
- bradleyjg 3y agoIt’s crazy to me that we have so many people that think they have a god given right to a paycheck. You get paid money to do what the person paying you wants you to do. Not because you are a good person who worked hard in high school and college and now deserve money from the sky for the rest of your life.
- mandmandam 3y ago[flagged]
- sandspar 3y ago[flagged]
- ptcrash 3y agoIgnoring obvious flame-bait, it sounds like the termination was an amicable feeling then, yeah?
- mandmandam 3y agoThe employee said that they were "proud" to be fired for speaking out against genocide. If you choose to interpret that as "amicable" that's on you; seems twisted to me though.
- jakupovic 3y agoPeople have a right to a paycheck just like people have a right to water. Companies wouldn't exist without economy which is propped up by various governments and the collective goods we all create, think roads, freeways, laws, schools and everything else Companies don't pay for but enjoy fruits off of.
- asylteltine 3y ago[dead]
- blamestross 3y agoHe presented himself in the context of his engineering role to make a political statement. That violates Google's own policies. That same policy says they wouldn't have fired him if the context had been one where he was presenting himself as a "civilian" not an employee. Getting himself fired was something he knew would be part of this protest.
- bigyikes 3y agoAnyone opposed to this should start a company and see how they like paying someone six figures to waste their time.
- GaryNumanVevo 3y agoI value diversity of thought
- mckn1ght 3y agoThis is an empty platitude, which is why it works so well for corporate PR. In reality, “diversity” is not binary, but is a continuum. And any time you have a continuum, you will have a threshold beyond which a given person cannot tolerate the level of that thing. Hire enough people and you are bound to come upon someone with incompatible values to your own.
- mustafa_pasi 3y agoHe did the right thing. He knew he was going to get fired and probably didn't care to work there any longer anyway. At least he managed to grab multiple headlines this way. God bless him.
- sandspar 3y ago[flagged]
- jakupovic 3y agoThis is flamebait and we need dang to clean it up. Also, you're an idiot for wrapping your thoughts in stupid comparisons cultivated by vested interests.
- sandspar 3y ago[flagged]
- dang 3y agoPlease don't respond to a bad comment by breaking the site guidelines yourself. That only makes things worse. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html Edit: you crossed into personal attack in another place too: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39659305 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39659305. We ban accounts that do that, so please don't do it again. If you'd also please review https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and stick to the rules when posting here, we'd appreciate it.
- jakupovic 3y ago[flagged]
- dang 3y agoI agree that https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39659092 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39659092 was not a good HN comment (primarily because of the first sentence there) but you and sandspar both broke HN's rules far worse in this thread. That is why I replied to the two of you. If you see another commenter breaking HN's rules, you're welcome to let us know either by flagging the comment and/or by emailing us at hn@ycombinator.com. But please don't respond by breaking the rules yourself ("you're an idiot").
- aaomidi 3y ago[flagged]
- ParetoOptimal 3y agoTheir protest was very effective given the existence of this discussion here and across the web. Despite what those who claim politics can or should be kept out of work want to claim. For those who claim the protester was an idiot, consider their goal wasnt keeping their job and instead living their values. That doesn't make them an idiot.
- homefree 3y ago[flagged]
- ParetoOptimal 3y ago> shouting down people you disagree with is wrong and illiberal and should not be tolerated in a healthy society (or company), independent of the particulars of the belief itself. You wouldnt have even shouted at people spitting on black protestors eating in whites only diners? In such a world where shouting people down you disagree with is forbidden you are forever stuck with the status quo.
- homefree 3y agoThe other more effective, more liberal option is persuasion. This is something MLK understood.
- ParetoOptimal 3y agoYou know MLK was at the diner sit-in im referring to right? He doesn't meet your definition of liberal. Furthermore he directly speaks against your liberal option: > First, I must confess that over the past few years I have been gravely disappointed with the white moderate. I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro's great stumbling block in his stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen's Counciler or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate, who is more devoted to "order" than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says: "I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I cannot agree with your methods of direct action"; who paternalistically believes he can set the timetable for another man's freedom; who lives by a mythical concept of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait for a "more convenient season." Shallow understanding from people of good will is more frustrating than absolute misunderstanding from people of ill will. https://www.africa.upenn.edu/Articles_Gen/Letter_Birmingham.html https://www.africa.upenn.edu/Articles_Gen/Letter_Birmingham....
- WhereIsTheTruth 3y ago[flagged]
- bitcurious 3y agoThe engineer in question said that they refused to work for a company that participated in project Nimbus/contracting with Israeli state. Is that not a resignation?
- runarberg 3y agoNot really. Google is a large company, they are fully capable of taking a moral stand along with the worker. But in reality, there is profits to be made, and in our economy we are encouraged to stand with democracy and human rights but only as long as it doesn’t affect the profits for our shareholders.
- bitcharmer 3y ago[flagged]
- GaryNumanVevo 3y agoDo you think the "blue-haired fairy gang" is pro-Zionist or anti-Zionist?
- jasonm23 3y agoNote, YC is actively auto-muting much of this conversation.