11 ms·

All those words about focus, concentration, taming the wandering mind -- and never even a passing reference to Buddhism, whose central practice is exactly that.

by fernly 3y ago

All those words about focus, concentration, taming the wandering mind -- and never even a passing reference to Buddhism, whose central practice is exactly that. Certainly a Christian hermetic deals with the same problems as does a Buddhist monk, but I note one profound difference in their approaches. The Christian faces a dualistic world, and trains the mind to, as the article quotes one monk saying, "become strong enough to drive off the enemy’s stimuli.” The "enemy" being Satan, trying to divert the faithful. The Buddhist does not see the world as divided between warring good and evil influences, but rather views the wandering mind non-judgementally, as needing only constant gentle correction.

gloryjulio 3y ago
There are mythic branches of the Christianities. In fact, most of the religions have mythic branches and the ideas about these topics on self are strikingly similar and convergent. On the other direction, Buddhism is not so 'spiritual directed' in the prescientific history. The difference is just that Buddhism is very malleable. People can easily pick and choose the text and practices and even treat it as non religion. You can easily practice Buddhism in the modern context without the baggage.
- Lyngbakr 3y ago
  > You can easily practice Buddhism in the modern context without the baggage. An excellent book on this exact topic is Buddhism Without Beliefs by Stephen Batchelor[0]. Very readable & super short. Recommended! [0]https://www.amazon.com/Buddhism-Without-Beliefs-Contemporary-Awakening/dp/1573226564 https://www.amazon.com/Buddhism-Without-Beliefs-Contemporary...
korginator 3y ago
In a discussion about what monks know about focus, I too find it strange that other schools and practices are ignored. The core of the Buddhist practice is about cultivating the mind for insight and clarity. In the linked article, I find the reasons offered by Nestorus to engage in reading rather specious and elementary, hardly scratching the surface of a vast and well practised domain. His first point - that reading helps avoid toxic thoughts - is avoiding instead of getting to the root of the problem and fixing it. His third and "most mysterious" reason for immersive reading - that it deepens our understanding of the reading material because our minds are changing - is how education works in the first place. The basic Buddhist teachings and practices even for lay people cover this vast domain concisely, with clear prescriptions to practice and try it out for ourselves, iterate and progress. In fact, the very first of the seven factors of awakening that we're advised to cultivate is mindfulness which underlies everything else. This commentary [1] provides an overview. The practices are covered in more detail in one of the core teachings, MN10 - Satipatthana Sutta [2]. While reading/listening/remembering are valued as aids (it's called suta-mayā pañña - knowledge based on learning), pretty much every Buddhist monk and practising upāsaka / upāsika (layperson) are taught to practice the techniques and realise this clarity, focus, mindfulness, etc., for themselves. The instruction mentioned above - MN10 - instructs you on attention and mindfulness wherever you are and whatever you're doing, in the section on clear comprehension - you're cultivating the skill (bhāvana) where you're clear about what you're doing, why you're doing it, the consequences of your actions, etc., whether you're defecating, urinating, reading, lying down to sleep, whatever - a constant practice of mindfulness and a full-time job. [1] https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/piyadassi/wheel001.html https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/piyadassi/wheel0... [2] https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/soma/wayof.html https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/soma/wayof.html
- numerobis 3y ago
  > The basic Buddhist teachings and practices even for lay people cover this vast domain concisely Not so concisely I would say. What source are you refering to here? Because the Pali Cannon is very long…
  - korginator 3y ago
    MN10 as in my earlier comment is the starting point. The German monk Nyanaponika Thera provides a detailed exposition. https://www.bps.lk/library-search-select.php?id=bp509s https://www.bps.lk/library-search-select.php?id=bp509s https://archive.org/details/10011341809-the-heart-of-buddhist-meditation https://archive.org/details/10011341809-the-heart-of-buddhis...
- fuzztester 3y ago
  >Satipatthana Sutta I read some paragraphs of that link, and was interested to see that in a lot of places, there is a lot of repetition of the words and phrases, with appropriate variations. I am guessing that it was a technique that was used to reinforce the learning by the listener, similar to how the Vedas and other ancient Indian scriptures were passed on by making the student repeat them a number of times and memorize them, because they were no modern things like books, and maybe even palm leaf manuscripts came sometime later. That's what I've heard, anyway, from parents and relatives.
  - fuzztester 3y ago
    And, good reference, thanks for sharing.
cammil 3y ago
I suspect the reason is because Buddhism is lumped in with the other major world religions, and therefore considered a form of faith or belief. If the author knew Buddhism well then they would realise that couldn't be further from the truth. Another possibility has occurred to me: they know Buddhism but don't want to scare away readers that have the above misconception. Actually I often find myself avoiding Buddhist terminology when I'm asked about my meditation practices.
- haswell 3y ago
  I had major misconceptions about Buddhism for years, and avoided anything related. This was probably because of a very toxic (Christian) religious upbringing that left me very suspicious of anything resembling religion. When I started getting curious (and later serious) about meditation and then started going down the rabbit hole of understanding Buddhism, I couldn’t believe just how completely different it was than I was expecting, and how useful it was without taking on any metaphysical or otherwise religious beliefs. I also find myself dancing around the details when I talk about meditation now. The misconceptions run deep, and I always feel compelled to clarify that I’m not talking about anything religious. I often think about how I would introduce a past me to these concepts without scaring that person away. I think it boils down to focusing on the philosophical ideas and experiential possibilities without touching any of the jargon.
- hackernewds 3y ago
  Hot take -- religion is a Western concept that formed the basis of a strategy for colonialism. The latest Dune movie references this well. Buddhism as a lived experience is a set of guidelines and practices that direct a way of living. Ask folks from India as well and they will say Hinduism is a way of life and that is their "dharma". The word "dharma" itself is often used as a translation for the religion, however it is closest to duty. And a Hindu will often follow practices from both Hinduism and Buddhism because ultimately they aren't in conflict and religion isn't meant to be identity. If you follow it as such, there is nothing to avoid.
  - p3rls 3y ago
tdudhhu 3y ago
Well it's a book review about a specific book. So I don't see why bringing in Buddhism would be relevant in this case. But related to this: the oldest Bible books are older than Buddhism. And they also contain references to meditation. So it is seems that meditation was already very common in the very old ages.
- korginator 3y ago
  The topic is on what monks know about focus, so I'd say that any relevant monastic practices are relevant to the discussion, that includes Buddhist monks' practices on focus and mindfulness. As to the second point - the Bible is older than Buddhism? What now?!? I'm surely in a different universe.
  - tdudhhu 3y ago
    The Bible is obviously not older than Buddhism but some texts are. And they contain references to meditation. Maybe the author could have used Buddhism as reference, but wouldn't he than have to reference Hinduism too? I mean: it seems the focus of the author was a book review.
  - amykhar 3y ago
    The title was What Monks Know About Focus. The actual topic was justifying the value of reading.
nataliste 3y ago
Do you have any formal knowledge of what traditional forms of Buddhism teach? Because this assertion is divorced from what is actually contained in Buddhism. There is a duality, there is an evil one, and contrary to popular American conception, contains a panoply of divine beings and assertions concerning the moral nature of the universe. The following are not isolated instances, but are spread all over the Pali Canon. The Pali Canon, SN 35:189 (tr. Thanissaro Bhikkhu)^2: >There are forms, monks, cognizable via the eye—agreeable, pleasing, charming, endearing, enticing, linked to sensual desire. If a monk relishes them, welcomes them, & remains fastened to them, he is said to be a monk who has swallowed Māra’s hook, who has fallen into misfortune & disaster. The Evil One can do with him as he will. >“There are sounds cognizable via the ear… >“There are aromas cognizable via the nose… >“There are flavors cognizable via the tongue… >“There are tactile sensations cognizable via the body… >“There are ideas cognizable via the intellect—agreeable, pleasing, charming, endearing, enticing, linked to sensual desire. If a monk relishes them, welcomes them, & remains fastened to them, he is said to be a monk who has swallowed Māra’s hook, who has fallen into misfortune & disaster. The Evil One can do with him as he will. Similarly with gentle persuasion. Pali Canon, MN 20 (tr. Thanissaro Bhikkhu)^2: >If evil, unskillful thoughts—connected with desire, aversion or delusion—still arise in the monk while he is attending to the relaxing of thought-fabrication with regard to those thoughts, then—with his teeth clenched and his tongue pressed against the roof of his mouth—he should beat down, constrain, and crush his mind with his awareness. As—with his teeth clenched and his tongue pressed against the roof of his mouth—he is beating down, constraining, and crushing his mind with his awareness, those evil, unskillful thoughts are abandoned and subside. With their abandoning, he steadies his mind right within, settles it, unifies it, and concentrates it. Just as a strong man, seizing a weaker man by the head or the throat or the shoulders, would beat him down, constrain, and crush him; in the same way, if evil, unskillful thoughts—connected with desire, aversion or delusion—still arise in the monk while he is attending to the relaxing of thought-fabrication with regard to those thoughts, then—with his teeth clenched and his tongue pressed against the roof of his mouth—he should beat down, constrain, and crush his mind with his awareness. As—with his teeth clenched and his tongue pressed against the roof of his mouth—he is beating down, constraining, and crushing his mind with his awareness, those evil, unskillful thoughts are abandoned and subside. With their abandoning, he steadies his mind right within, settles it, unifies it, and concentrates it. --- 1 - https://www.dhammatalks.org/suttas/SN/SN35_189.html https://www.dhammatalks.org/suttas/SN/SN35_189.html 2 - https://www.dhammatalks.org/suttas/MN/MN20.html https://www.dhammatalks.org/suttas/MN/MN20.html
layer8 3y ago
The article is a book review for a book about insights from early Christian monks — so that’s what the article discusses.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
antwerp1 3y ago
“The Buddhist does not see the world as divided between warring good and evil influences, but rather views the wandering mind non-judgementally, as needing only constant gentle correction.” This is something I never understood about the New Age movement. You use the word correction. Now, whether done gently or forcefully, the act of correcting something implies a path of some sort— to compensate for getting off-course while moving toward a target, if you will. If you cannot judge that you are off-course, how can you possibly (gently) correct yourself? Further, can you define a target without asserting a judgement? Can you say “Let’s aim for the stars” without simultaneously implying, not the moon, and not the earth? Even viewing the mind as “wandering” is a strong judgement! If the enemy is simply a name for whatever is pulling you off-course, then isn’t that embedded in any judgement of correction?

by fernly 3y ago

gloryjulio 3y ago

There are mythic branches of the Christianities. In fact, most of the religions have mythic branches and the ideas about these topics on self are strikingly similar and convergent. On the other direction, Buddhism is not so 'spiritual directed' in the prescientific history. The difference is just that Buddhism is very malleable. People can easily pick and choose the text and practices and even treat it as non religion. You can easily practice Buddhism in the modern context without the baggage.

Lyngbakr 3y ago
> You can easily practice Buddhism in the modern context without the baggage. An excellent book on this exact topic is Buddhism Without Beliefs by Stephen Batchelor[0]. Very readable & super short. Recommended! [0]https://www.amazon.com/Buddhism-Without-Beliefs-Contemporary-Awakening/dp/1573226564 https://www.amazon.com/Buddhism-Without-Beliefs-Contemporary...

korginator 3y ago

In a discussion about what monks know about focus, I too find it strange that other schools and practices are ignored. The core of the Buddhist practice is about cultivating the mind for insight and clarity. In the linked article, I find the reasons offered by Nestorus to engage in reading rather specious and elementary, hardly scratching the surface of a vast and well practised domain. His first point - that reading helps avoid toxic thoughts - is avoiding instead of getting to the root of the problem and fixing it. His third and "most mysterious" reason for immersive reading - that it deepens our understanding of the reading material because our minds are changing - is how education works in the first place. The basic Buddhist teachings and practices even for lay people cover this vast domain concisely, with clear prescriptions to practice and try it out for ourselves, iterate and progress. In fact, the very first of the seven factors of awakening that we're advised to cultivate is mindfulness which underlies everything else. This commentary [1] provides an overview. The practices are covered in more detail in one of the core teachings, MN10 - Satipatthana Sutta [2]. While reading/listening/remembering are valued as aids (it's called suta-mayā pañña - knowledge based on learning), pretty much every Buddhist monk and practising upāsaka / upāsika (layperson) are taught to practice the techniques and realise this clarity, focus, mindfulness, etc., for themselves. The instruction mentioned above - MN10 - instructs you on attention and mindfulness wherever you are and whatever you're doing, in the section on clear comprehension - you're cultivating the skill (bhāvana) where you're clear about what you're doing, why you're doing it, the consequences of your actions, etc., whether you're defecating, urinating, reading, lying down to sleep, whatever - a constant practice of mindfulness and a full-time job. [1] https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/piyadassi/wheel001.html https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/piyadassi/wheel0... [2] https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/soma/wayof.html https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/soma/wayof.html

numerobis 3y ago
> The basic Buddhist teachings and practices even for lay people cover this vast domain concisely Not so concisely I would say. What source are you refering to here? Because the Pali Cannon is very long…
- korginator 3y ago
  MN10 as in my earlier comment is the starting point. The German monk Nyanaponika Thera provides a detailed exposition. https://www.bps.lk/library-search-select.php?id=bp509s https://www.bps.lk/library-search-select.php?id=bp509s https://archive.org/details/10011341809-the-heart-of-buddhist-meditation https://archive.org/details/10011341809-the-heart-of-buddhis...
fuzztester 3y ago
>Satipatthana Sutta I read some paragraphs of that link, and was interested to see that in a lot of places, there is a lot of repetition of the words and phrases, with appropriate variations. I am guessing that it was a technique that was used to reinforce the learning by the listener, similar to how the Vedas and other ancient Indian scriptures were passed on by making the student repeat them a number of times and memorize them, because they were no modern things like books, and maybe even palm leaf manuscripts came sometime later. That's what I've heard, anyway, from parents and relatives.
- fuzztester 3y ago
  And, good reference, thanks for sharing.

cammil 3y ago

I suspect the reason is because Buddhism is lumped in with the other major world religions, and therefore considered a form of faith or belief. If the author knew Buddhism well then they would realise that couldn't be further from the truth. Another possibility has occurred to me: they know Buddhism but don't want to scare away readers that have the above misconception. Actually I often find myself avoiding Buddhist terminology when I'm asked about my meditation practices.

haswell 3y ago
I had major misconceptions about Buddhism for years, and avoided anything related. This was probably because of a very toxic (Christian) religious upbringing that left me very suspicious of anything resembling religion. When I started getting curious (and later serious) about meditation and then started going down the rabbit hole of understanding Buddhism, I couldn’t believe just how completely different it was than I was expecting, and how useful it was without taking on any metaphysical or otherwise religious beliefs. I also find myself dancing around the details when I talk about meditation now. The misconceptions run deep, and I always feel compelled to clarify that I’m not talking about anything religious. I often think about how I would introduce a past me to these concepts without scaring that person away. I think it boils down to focusing on the philosophical ideas and experiential possibilities without touching any of the jargon.
hackernewds 3y ago
Hot take -- religion is a Western concept that formed the basis of a strategy for colonialism. The latest Dune movie references this well. Buddhism as a lived experience is a set of guidelines and practices that direct a way of living. Ask folks from India as well and they will say Hinduism is a way of life and that is their "dharma". The word "dharma" itself is often used as a translation for the religion, however it is closest to duty. And a Hindu will often follow practices from both Hinduism and Buddhism because ultimately they aren't in conflict and religion isn't meant to be identity. If you follow it as such, there is nothing to avoid.
- p3rls 3y ago

tdudhhu 3y ago

Well it's a book review about a specific book. So I don't see why bringing in Buddhism would be relevant in this case. But related to this: the oldest Bible books are older than Buddhism. And they also contain references to meditation. So it is seems that meditation was already very common in the very old ages.

korginator 3y ago
The topic is on what monks know about focus, so I'd say that any relevant monastic practices are relevant to the discussion, that includes Buddhist monks' practices on focus and mindfulness. As to the second point - the Bible is older than Buddhism? What now?!? I'm surely in a different universe.
- tdudhhu 3y ago
  The Bible is obviously not older than Buddhism but some texts are. And they contain references to meditation. Maybe the author could have used Buddhism as reference, but wouldn't he than have to reference Hinduism too? I mean: it seems the focus of the author was a book review.
- amykhar 3y ago
  The title was What Monks Know About Focus. The actual topic was justifying the value of reading.

nataliste 3y ago

Do you have any formal knowledge of what traditional forms of Buddhism teach? Because this assertion is divorced from what is actually contained in Buddhism. There is a duality, there is an evil one, and contrary to popular American conception, contains a panoply of divine beings and assertions concerning the moral nature of the universe. The following are not isolated instances, but are spread all over the Pali Canon. The Pali Canon, SN 35:189 (tr. Thanissaro Bhikkhu)^2: >There are forms, monks, cognizable via the eye—agreeable, pleasing, charming, endearing, enticing, linked to sensual desire. If a monk relishes them, welcomes them, & remains fastened to them, he is said to be a monk who has swallowed Māra’s hook, who has fallen into misfortune & disaster. The Evil One can do with him as he will. >“There are sounds cognizable via the ear… >“There are aromas cognizable via the nose… >“There are flavors cognizable via the tongue… >“There are tactile sensations cognizable via the body… >“There are ideas cognizable via the intellect—agreeable, pleasing, charming, endearing, enticing, linked to sensual desire. If a monk relishes them, welcomes them, & remains fastened to them, he is said to be a monk who has swallowed Māra’s hook, who has fallen into misfortune & disaster. The Evil One can do with him as he will. Similarly with gentle persuasion. Pali Canon, MN 20 (tr. Thanissaro Bhikkhu)^2: >If evil, unskillful thoughts—connected with desire, aversion or delusion—still arise in the monk while he is attending to the relaxing of thought-fabrication with regard to those thoughts, then—with his teeth clenched and his tongue pressed against the roof of his mouth—he should beat down, constrain, and crush his mind with his awareness. As—with his teeth clenched and his tongue pressed against the roof of his mouth—he is beating down, constraining, and crushing his mind with his awareness, those evil, unskillful thoughts are abandoned and subside. With their abandoning, he steadies his mind right within, settles it, unifies it, and concentrates it. Just as a strong man, seizing a weaker man by the head or the throat or the shoulders, would beat him down, constrain, and crush him; in the same way, if evil, unskillful thoughts—connected with desire, aversion or delusion—still arise in the monk while he is attending to the relaxing of thought-fabrication with regard to those thoughts, then—with his teeth clenched and his tongue pressed against the roof of his mouth—he should beat down, constrain, and crush his mind with his awareness. As—with his teeth clenched and his tongue pressed against the roof of his mouth—he is beating down, constraining, and crushing his mind with his awareness, those evil, unskillful thoughts are abandoned and subside. With their abandoning, he steadies his mind right within, settles it, unifies it, and concentrates it. --- 1 - https://www.dhammatalks.org/suttas/SN/SN35_189.html https://www.dhammatalks.org/suttas/SN/SN35_189.html 2 - https://www.dhammatalks.org/suttas/MN/MN20.html https://www.dhammatalks.org/suttas/MN/MN20.html

layer8 3y ago

The article is a book review for a book about insights from early Christian monks — so that’s what the article discusses.

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]

antwerp1 3y ago

“The Buddhist does not see the world as divided between warring good and evil influences, but rather views the wandering mind non-judgementally, as needing only constant gentle correction.” This is something I never understood about the New Age movement. You use the word correction. Now, whether done gently or forcefully, the act of correcting something implies a path of some sort— to compensate for getting off-course while moving toward a target, if you will. If you cannot judge that you are off-course, how can you possibly (gently) correct yourself? Further, can you define a target without asserting a judgement? Can you say “Let’s aim for the stars” without simultaneously implying, not the moon, and not the earth? Even viewing the mind as “wandering” is a strong judgement! If the enemy is simply a name for whatever is pulling you off-course, then isn’t that embedded in any judgement of correction?