3 ms·

I addressed that in the first line! To restate: why is Hamas' attack on Oct 7 bad? It's because they killed civilians. If we condemn that, then we must condemn

I addressed that in the first line! To restate: why is Hamas' attack on Oct 7 bad? It's because they killed civilians. If we condemn that, then we must condemn all the IDF killings of civilians. If we do not, what basis do we have to condemn Hamas? Israel's killing of civilians is a horrendous war crime. No we are not doing a carve-out because they really want to kill Hamas fighters. Absurd and horrific to suggest that.

tptacek 3y ago
Hamas has an objective of killing civilians. You will of course argue that Israel does as well, but that will be an argument, not a plain statement of fact.
- bestcoder69 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - tptacek 3y ago
    How do you expect to have a curious conversation when you phrase questions that way? If that's not what you're after on this topic, fair enough! I don't like that people are trying to hash this out on HN either. But that's the rule for this place.
    - bestcoder69 3y ago
      [flagged]
- CyberDildonics 3y ago
  There have been 29,000 deaths and all aid has been cut off along with cement poured in their plumbing so they have no fresh water. https://time.com/6696507/palestinian-death-toll-gaza-israel-hamas/ https://time.com/6696507/palestinian-death-toll-gaza-israel-... 1 in 100 people have been killed in gaza since october 7th. Entire neighborhoods have been leveled by bombs and bulldozed. https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2023/10/07/world/middleeast/israel-gaza-maps.html https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2023/10/07/world/middlee... All this and you are saying it's up for debate that that they are trying to kill civilians.
  - YZF 3y ago
    Hamas had 40,000 combatants before Oct 7th. It started a war on Israel and is still continuing that war. This war can be over today. It could have been over 3 months ago. It could have not started at all. Generally the areas leveled and bombed were evacuated from civilians. Yes, there were definitely many cases where civilians died from bombs but your statement is not relevant in the way you claim it is. If you were Israel, and you have 40,000 combatants in Gaza that want to rape, kill and mutiliate your citizens, and say they will never stop, hold hostages, what do you do? Do you have a magical solution that removes them from the fortified, full of tunnels and booby traps Gaza? So yes, it's totally up to debate. I am sure there have been cases of civilians being targeted. I am also sure that the finger on the trigger is very light on the Israeli side. But this is very different than intentionally targeting civilians as a matter of policy. There is plenty of proof that is not the case, civilians have evacuated under IDF security from many parts in Gaza and were not killed. Hamas does not differentiate civilians from combatants, uses child combatants, and while maybe the total number is in the ballpark the details are manipulated. This is not to excuse or make light of the heavy price of this conflict in human life. I know, now we're going to unravel the entire conflict. Talk about Israel's right wing crazies and government, Occupation, resistance, apartheid, genocide, open air prison, etc. No we don't need to unravel the entire conflict. We can judge this from Oct 7th because the significance of that event in scale and barbarism eclipses the entire conflict. If you want to unravel the entire conflict I'm happy to do that too.
    - CyberDildonics 3y ago
      I am also sure that the finger on the trigger is very light on the Israeli side Based on what? Killing 200 people per day? Bombing people that are evacuating their homes after telling them to do it? https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/16/middleeast/israel-palestinian-evacuation-orders-invs/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/16/middleeast/israel-palestinian... https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/live-blog/israel-hamas-war-live-updates-rcna120252 https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/live-blog/israel-hamas-wa... https://www.latimes.com/world-nation/story/2023-10-13/israel-orders-unprecedented-evacuation-gaza-possible-ground-offensive https://www.latimes.com/world-nation/story/2023-10-13/israel... https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/21/world/middleeast/israel-gaza-bomb-investigation.html https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/21/world/middleeast/israel-g... Israel's plan to "destroy" Gaza comes from "the highest level of state", the UN's top court has heard. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67942983 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67942983
- pbiggar 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - YZF 3y ago
    "The hour of judgment shall not come until the Muslims fight the Jews and kill them, so that the Jews hide behind trees and stones, and each tree and stone will say: 'Oh Muslim, oh servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him,' except for the Gharqad tree, for it is the tree of the Jews. (Hamas Charter, Article 7)." https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2023/10/hamas-covenant-israel-attack-war-genocide/675602/ https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2023/10/ha... If Islam does not allow the killing of civilians then what exactly happened at the Nova festival or in all the settlements attacked on Oct 7th?
    - Qem 3y ago
      [flagged]
    - pbiggar 3y ago
      If you're going to quote Hamas, a bit dishonest of you to quote their 1988 document instead of their 2017 one. "16. Hamas affirms that its conflict is with the Zionist project not with the Jews because of their religion. Hamas does not wage a struggle against the Jews because they are Jewish but wages a struggle against the Zionists who occupy Palestine. Yet, it is the Zionists who constantly identify Judaism and the Jews with their own colonial project and illegal entity."
      - YZF 3y ago
        No. It's dishonest of you to claim that: "Islam does not allow killing of civilians in war, so this would surprise me. I googled for it and haven't found anything other than pro-Israeli groups saying it." and say that you couldn't find evidence of it when clearly in 1988-2017 Hamas did exactly what you're so surprised of. Is this a new tenant of Islam that came into force after 2017? Also you know that quote is from the Quran, which takes precedence over the Hamas Covenant... Hamas killed hundreds using suicide bombers: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Palestinian_suicide_attacks https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Palestinian_suicide_at... What about ISIS? Al Qaeda? PIJ? Taliban? I'm not even going to count the millions of civilians killed by civil wars in Muslim countries. The idea that Hamas won't kill civilians because it goes against Islam is so ridiculous and disconnected from reality that I don't think we live on the same planet. Hamas continues to attack and kill civilians, intentionally, throughout. Including after 2017. Including Oct 7th. You can't seriously say you Googled this and it doesn't exist. Here's how many civilians were killed before Oct 7th: https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/comprehensive-listing-of-terrorism-victims-in-israel#2018 https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/comprehensive-listing-o... Indiscriminate rocket attacks against civilians: rel= https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/palestinian-rocket-and-... "Wiesenthal Centre Alert: "Hamas Charter 'Fatwa' to Murder all Jews Still in Effect" " - https://www.wiesenthal.com/about/news/wiesenthal-centre-alert.html https://www.wiesenthal.com/about/news/wiesenthal-centre-aler... Just tell me how many references you need and I'll find that number. EDIT: You should also watch footage from Oct 7th and listen to the testimonies of survivors. Hamas raped and mutilated civilians. They live streamed and filmed some of their actions. They called parents on the victims phone to show them they're killing them. Hamas threw hand grenades into shelters where civilians were trying to hide. It burnt civilian houses down to kill the families hiding inside them. It is a diabolic, fanatical, psychopathic, evil entity. This claim that somehow Hamas doesn't target civilians is just - crazy.
YZF 3y ago
Hamas's on Oct 7th aimed to kill civilians. Not only did they aim to kill them they aimed to rape, torture and mutilate them. Oh and kidnap some of them. https://apnews.com/article/israel-palestinians-un-rape-oct7-hamas-gaza-fe1a35767a63666fe4dc1c97e397177e https://apnews.com/article/israel-palestinians-un-rape-oct7-... You assertion is also ridiculous because it ignores the order in which things happened. First Hamas attacked civilians. Then Israel responded. During that response civilians were killed. Israel's killing of civilians is a war crime only under certain conditions. Killing of civilians during war isn't automatically a war crime. If there are war crimes, then we should certainly condemn them.

tptacek 3y ago

Hamas has an objective of killing civilians. You will of course argue that Israel does as well, but that will be an argument, not a plain statement of fact.

bestcoder69 3y ago
[flagged]
- tptacek 3y ago
  How do you expect to have a curious conversation when you phrase questions that way? If that's not what you're after on this topic, fair enough! I don't like that people are trying to hash this out on HN either. But that's the rule for this place.
  - bestcoder69 3y ago
    [flagged]
CyberDildonics 3y ago
There have been 29,000 deaths and all aid has been cut off along with cement poured in their plumbing so they have no fresh water. https://time.com/6696507/palestinian-death-toll-gaza-israel-hamas/ https://time.com/6696507/palestinian-death-toll-gaza-israel-... 1 in 100 people have been killed in gaza since october 7th. Entire neighborhoods have been leveled by bombs and bulldozed. https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2023/10/07/world/middleeast/israel-gaza-maps.html https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2023/10/07/world/middlee... All this and you are saying it's up for debate that that they are trying to kill civilians.
- YZF 3y ago
  Hamas had 40,000 combatants before Oct 7th. It started a war on Israel and is still continuing that war. This war can be over today. It could have been over 3 months ago. It could have not started at all. Generally the areas leveled and bombed were evacuated from civilians. Yes, there were definitely many cases where civilians died from bombs but your statement is not relevant in the way you claim it is. If you were Israel, and you have 40,000 combatants in Gaza that want to rape, kill and mutiliate your citizens, and say they will never stop, hold hostages, what do you do? Do you have a magical solution that removes them from the fortified, full of tunnels and booby traps Gaza? So yes, it's totally up to debate. I am sure there have been cases of civilians being targeted. I am also sure that the finger on the trigger is very light on the Israeli side. But this is very different than intentionally targeting civilians as a matter of policy. There is plenty of proof that is not the case, civilians have evacuated under IDF security from many parts in Gaza and were not killed. Hamas does not differentiate civilians from combatants, uses child combatants, and while maybe the total number is in the ballpark the details are manipulated. This is not to excuse or make light of the heavy price of this conflict in human life. I know, now we're going to unravel the entire conflict. Talk about Israel's right wing crazies and government, Occupation, resistance, apartheid, genocide, open air prison, etc. No we don't need to unravel the entire conflict. We can judge this from Oct 7th because the significance of that event in scale and barbarism eclipses the entire conflict. If you want to unravel the entire conflict I'm happy to do that too.
  - CyberDildonics 3y ago
    I am also sure that the finger on the trigger is very light on the Israeli side Based on what? Killing 200 people per day? Bombing people that are evacuating their homes after telling them to do it? https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/16/middleeast/israel-palestinian-evacuation-orders-invs/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/16/middleeast/israel-palestinian... https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/live-blog/israel-hamas-war-live-updates-rcna120252 https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/live-blog/israel-hamas-wa... https://www.latimes.com/world-nation/story/2023-10-13/israel-orders-unprecedented-evacuation-gaza-possible-ground-offensive https://www.latimes.com/world-nation/story/2023-10-13/israel... https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/21/world/middleeast/israel-gaza-bomb-investigation.html https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/21/world/middleeast/israel-g... Israel's plan to "destroy" Gaza comes from "the highest level of state", the UN's top court has heard. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67942983 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67942983
pbiggar 3y ago
[flagged]
- YZF 3y ago
  "The hour of judgment shall not come until the Muslims fight the Jews and kill them, so that the Jews hide behind trees and stones, and each tree and stone will say: 'Oh Muslim, oh servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him,' except for the Gharqad tree, for it is the tree of the Jews. (Hamas Charter, Article 7)." https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2023/10/hamas-covenant-israel-attack-war-genocide/675602/ https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2023/10/ha... If Islam does not allow the killing of civilians then what exactly happened at the Nova festival or in all the settlements attacked on Oct 7th?
  - Qem 3y ago
    [flagged]
  - pbiggar 3y ago
    If you're going to quote Hamas, a bit dishonest of you to quote their 1988 document instead of their 2017 one. "16. Hamas affirms that its conflict is with the Zionist project not with the Jews because of their religion. Hamas does not wage a struggle against the Jews because they are Jewish but wages a struggle against the Zionists who occupy Palestine. Yet, it is the Zionists who constantly identify Judaism and the Jews with their own colonial project and illegal entity."
    - YZF 3y ago
      No. It's dishonest of you to claim that: "Islam does not allow killing of civilians in war, so this would surprise me. I googled for it and haven't found anything other than pro-Israeli groups saying it." and say that you couldn't find evidence of it when clearly in 1988-2017 Hamas did exactly what you're so surprised of. Is this a new tenant of Islam that came into force after 2017? Also you know that quote is from the Quran, which takes precedence over the Hamas Covenant... Hamas killed hundreds using suicide bombers: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Palestinian_suicide_attacks https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Palestinian_suicide_at... What about ISIS? Al Qaeda? PIJ? Taliban? I'm not even going to count the millions of civilians killed by civil wars in Muslim countries. The idea that Hamas won't kill civilians because it goes against Islam is so ridiculous and disconnected from reality that I don't think we live on the same planet. Hamas continues to attack and kill civilians, intentionally, throughout. Including after 2017. Including Oct 7th. You can't seriously say you Googled this and it doesn't exist. Here's how many civilians were killed before Oct 7th: https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/comprehensive-listing-of-terrorism-victims-in-israel#2018 https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/comprehensive-listing-o... Indiscriminate rocket attacks against civilians: rel= https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/palestinian-rocket-and-... "Wiesenthal Centre Alert: "Hamas Charter 'Fatwa' to Murder all Jews Still in Effect" " - https://www.wiesenthal.com/about/news/wiesenthal-centre-alert.html https://www.wiesenthal.com/about/news/wiesenthal-centre-aler... Just tell me how many references you need and I'll find that number. EDIT: You should also watch footage from Oct 7th and listen to the testimonies of survivors. Hamas raped and mutilated civilians. They live streamed and filmed some of their actions. They called parents on the victims phone to show them they're killing them. Hamas threw hand grenades into shelters where civilians were trying to hide. It burnt civilian houses down to kill the families hiding inside them. It is a diabolic, fanatical, psychopathic, evil entity. This claim that somehow Hamas doesn't target civilians is just - crazy.

YZF 3y ago

Hamas's on Oct 7th aimed to kill civilians. Not only did they aim to kill them they aimed to rape, torture and mutilate them. Oh and kidnap some of them. https://apnews.com/article/israel-palestinians-un-rape-oct7-hamas-gaza-fe1a35767a63666fe4dc1c97e397177e https://apnews.com/article/israel-palestinians-un-rape-oct7-... You assertion is also ridiculous because it ignores the order in which things happened. First Hamas attacked civilians. Then Israel responded. During that response civilians were killed. Israel's killing of civilians is a war crime only under certain conditions. Killing of civilians during war isn't automatically a war crime. If there are war crimes, then we should certainly condemn them.