5 ms·

I actually think there are lots of cases where it is perfectly warranted. It's a big world; if you are on the world stage, it is quite difficult not to offend

by cbsmith 15y ago

I actually think there are lots of cases where it is perfectly warranted. It's a big world; if you are on the world stage, it is quite difficult not to offend somebody no matter what you do. There are experts in the fields of diplomacy and etiquette who devote their careers to getting this stuff right, and usually even then there is someone offended about efforts to be so "proper". ;-) So, I think it is a perfectly valid apology if basically the only thing you regretted about your actions was that it made someone upset. Most people don't get off on pissing other people off, but they do want to live their life and go about their business. That apology is perfect for that context. What's freaky is when it is used for cases where you'd think there'd be a lot more that someone ought to be sorry for. What's even freakier is when someone everyone pretends it is apologizing for more than it is.

brown9-2 15y ago
So, I think it is a perfectly valid apology if basically the only thing you regretted about your actions was that it made someone upset This is what makes it a non-apology.
- baddox 15y ago
  No, it doesn't. If you say something that offends somebody, what else is there to be sorry about? It's not like you killed somebody and offended somebody else, and are only apologizing the offending part. When you offend someone, that's the only bad thing that happens. Or, as comedian Steve Hughes puts it, nothing happens when you're offended.
  - hej 15y ago
    Uhm, no, that’s not what apologies are about. When you apologize for something, you are also expressing regret for doing something. If you could decide again you would decide differently. In this case, a honest apology would be one where Dell apologizes for hiring that moderator: if we could go back in time and hire a moderator again, we wouldn’t hire that person. Maybe their apology for the offense is supposed to imply that (presumably, since they are apologizing, they want people to not be offended, one option for them to prevent that is to not hire people like that in the future), but why not say that directly? (I think the view that offense doesn’t matter and can be safely ignored is extremely damaging. And besides, it’s not as though offense is the worst thing about this. Dell gave someone the stage who legitimizes very weird views that would be disastrous if they became – even more – widespread in society or even the basis for policy. That’s why people are offended. And that’s a very good reason to be offended. Yes, words do matter.)
    - baddox 15y ago
      I don't understand what you're saying. You say that an apology is an expression of regret, but then you say that Dell's apology isn't an expression of regret. Are you just saying that the Dell statement should have been more explicit?
      - cbsmith 15y ago
        I'm not sure he agrees that it is an apology. I think it is more fair to say is that they expressed regret, but the only regret they expressed is that other people were offended by what they did. The conclusion is that if they had it to do over again, and they could find a way to do it without offending those people (keeping it secret perhaps?), they'd do it.
        baddox 15y ago
        But finding a way to do it without offending people is a perfectly fine solution, since the only bad thing that happened was that people were offended. I made that point in a previous comment.
- Poiesis 15y ago
  >> So, I think it is a perfectly valid apology if basically the only thing you regretted about your actions was that it made someone upset > This is what makes it a non-apology. reply This issue is one that my views have changed on over the years, and I've spent some time thinking about it. I currently do sometimes give that "non-apology", if you will. What else do I say when A) someone was hurt by something I said, but B) I don't know what I should have said differently? I genuinely feel bad for someone who is hurt by my actions, even if I feel that I couldn't have predicted/avoided it. It's kind of like when two people start talking at once--there's no real fault there; you can apologize without feeling "man, I really should have not started talking", assuming there were no cues.
  - cgoddard 15y ago
    There's nothing wrong with giving non-apologies in some circumstances. All it does is indicate in a diplomatic way that you weren't really sorry for what you did. If there was actually a really good reason for you to be sorry (ie. inviting an outspoken sexist radical to moderate at your event), that's a good reason for others to be pissed at your unapologetic response though!
gfodor 15y ago
I don't understand this viewpoint. What is an apology? An apology, at least to me, is a statement that you regret an action you performed, and hence are saying that if you were transported back in time and could relive that moment, you would have acted differently. Saying you are "sorry people were offended" does not imply that you would have acted differently. If you do not wish you would have acted differently, do not apologize. If you do, then perform a real apology saying you made a mistake and wish to correct it. If you simply say that you regret others being offended, all you are really saying is you lament the fact there are people that exist that were offended by your statement. Ie, it is a shame that people disagree with you or are offended by your words, much like it's a shame that a stranger got a flat tire or that science has yet to cure the common cold. Ie, it's their problem, or at the very least, an existential observation of how you think things ought to be, not something that is your problem or responsibility to correct.
- aptwebapps 15y ago
  Well, for me personally, if I've offended someone seriously then that itself is reason enough for me to regret the action under most circumstances. I might regret it more if I am able to emphasize with their offense, but just offending them is enough. But if you're attempting to apologize in public, it doesn't make sense to try to explain that. You can say what you did was wrong, if you think so. If you do not then just apologize simply without dressing it up with qualifications. It doesn't mean the apology is necessarily insincere. Some information is too delicate to transmit reliably in a public forum.
  - cbsmith 15y ago
    > You can say what you did was wrong, if you think so. If you do not then just apologize simply without dressing it up with qualifications. It doesn't mean the apology is necessarily insincere. If you don't specify what you are apologizing for, it leaves it to each listener to interpret what you feel sorry about. If you kill someone, and then say "I'm sorry", that could mean any number of things, "I am so sorry that I murdered him in his sleep so that I could take all his money", "I am sorry that while I was trying to take all his money, he caught me, so I killed him to stay out of jail", "I am sorry that I brought a gun with me to a robbery, because once he caught me, I had to either kill him or let him kill me", "I am sorry I was robbing him in the first place, I shouldn't steal, and killing him only made it so much worse", "that guy stole from me, and I was just trying to get the money back, but when he pulled a gun on me and said he'd kill me rather than let me take it back, I felt I had to kill him; in retrospect, I wish I had thought of another way to get the money back", "that guy was going to kill me then take my money, and I'm sorry that this was the case, but the only way I was going live was to kill him right then and there".... While some of those examples do offer an explanation, one can be specific about what one is apologizing for without offering an explanation (indeed, I think that's exactly what Dell did, and in their case I believe that is shameful, because they ought to be sorry for a lot more).
kiba 15y ago
It's a big world; if you are on the world stage, it is quite difficult not to offend somebody no matter what you do. There are experts in the fields of diplomacy and etiquette who devote their careers to getting this stuff right, and usually even then there is someone offended about efforts to be so "proper". ;-) Can you give evidence for what you believe in?
- deleted 15y ago
  [deleted]
erikpukinskis 15y ago
This has nothing to do with being "upset" or "offended" or "proper" or "etiquette". It has to do with little girls growing up thinking there are entire categories of things they can't do. And it has to do with grown women being unable to do their jobs because too much of their time is spend dealing with the fact that their coworkers can't handle working with a woman. I'm not "offended" that Dell is contributing to that, I'm sad.
antihero 15y ago
> it is quite difficult not to offend somebody no matter what you do. Avoiding having a guy that is blatantly sexist and misogynistic is not exactly hard nowadays.

by cbsmith 15y ago

brown9-2 15y ago

So, I think it is a perfectly valid apology if basically the only thing you regretted about your actions was that it made someone upset This is what makes it a non-apology.

baddox 15y ago
No, it doesn't. If you say something that offends somebody, what else is there to be sorry about? It's not like you killed somebody and offended somebody else, and are only apologizing the offending part. When you offend someone, that's the only bad thing that happens. Or, as comedian Steve Hughes puts it, nothing happens when you're offended.
- hej 15y ago
  Uhm, no, that’s not what apologies are about. When you apologize for something, you are also expressing regret for doing something. If you could decide again you would decide differently. In this case, a honest apology would be one where Dell apologizes for hiring that moderator: if we could go back in time and hire a moderator again, we wouldn’t hire that person. Maybe their apology for the offense is supposed to imply that (presumably, since they are apologizing, they want people to not be offended, one option for them to prevent that is to not hire people like that in the future), but why not say that directly? (I think the view that offense doesn’t matter and can be safely ignored is extremely damaging. And besides, it’s not as though offense is the worst thing about this. Dell gave someone the stage who legitimizes very weird views that would be disastrous if they became – even more – widespread in society or even the basis for policy. That’s why people are offended. And that’s a very good reason to be offended. Yes, words do matter.)
  - baddox 15y ago
    I don't understand what you're saying. You say that an apology is an expression of regret, but then you say that Dell's apology isn't an expression of regret. Are you just saying that the Dell statement should have been more explicit?
    - cbsmith 15y ago
      I'm not sure he agrees that it is an apology. I think it is more fair to say is that they expressed regret, but the only regret they expressed is that other people were offended by what they did. The conclusion is that if they had it to do over again, and they could find a way to do it without offending those people (keeping it secret perhaps?), they'd do it.
      - baddox 15y ago
        But finding a way to do it without offending people is a perfectly fine solution, since the only bad thing that happened was that people were offended. I made that point in a previous comment.
Poiesis 15y ago
>> So, I think it is a perfectly valid apology if basically the only thing you regretted about your actions was that it made someone upset > This is what makes it a non-apology. reply This issue is one that my views have changed on over the years, and I've spent some time thinking about it. I currently do sometimes give that "non-apology", if you will. What else do I say when A) someone was hurt by something I said, but B) I don't know what I should have said differently? I genuinely feel bad for someone who is hurt by my actions, even if I feel that I couldn't have predicted/avoided it. It's kind of like when two people start talking at once--there's no real fault there; you can apologize without feeling "man, I really should have not started talking", assuming there were no cues.
- cgoddard 15y ago
  There's nothing wrong with giving non-apologies in some circumstances. All it does is indicate in a diplomatic way that you weren't really sorry for what you did. If there was actually a really good reason for you to be sorry (ie. inviting an outspoken sexist radical to moderate at your event), that's a good reason for others to be pissed at your unapologetic response though!

gfodor 15y ago

I don't understand this viewpoint. What is an apology? An apology, at least to me, is a statement that you regret an action you performed, and hence are saying that if you were transported back in time and could relive that moment, you would have acted differently. Saying you are "sorry people were offended" does not imply that you would have acted differently. If you do not wish you would have acted differently, do not apologize. If you do, then perform a real apology saying you made a mistake and wish to correct it. If you simply say that you regret others being offended, all you are really saying is you lament the fact there are people that exist that were offended by your statement. Ie, it is a shame that people disagree with you or are offended by your words, much like it's a shame that a stranger got a flat tire or that science has yet to cure the common cold. Ie, it's their problem, or at the very least, an existential observation of how you think things ought to be, not something that is your problem or responsibility to correct.

aptwebapps 15y ago
Well, for me personally, if I've offended someone seriously then that itself is reason enough for me to regret the action under most circumstances. I might regret it more if I am able to emphasize with their offense, but just offending them is enough. But if you're attempting to apologize in public, it doesn't make sense to try to explain that. You can say what you did was wrong, if you think so. If you do not then just apologize simply without dressing it up with qualifications. It doesn't mean the apology is necessarily insincere. Some information is too delicate to transmit reliably in a public forum.
- cbsmith 15y ago
  > You can say what you did was wrong, if you think so. If you do not then just apologize simply without dressing it up with qualifications. It doesn't mean the apology is necessarily insincere. If you don't specify what you are apologizing for, it leaves it to each listener to interpret what you feel sorry about. If you kill someone, and then say "I'm sorry", that could mean any number of things, "I am so sorry that I murdered him in his sleep so that I could take all his money", "I am sorry that while I was trying to take all his money, he caught me, so I killed him to stay out of jail", "I am sorry that I brought a gun with me to a robbery, because once he caught me, I had to either kill him or let him kill me", "I am sorry I was robbing him in the first place, I shouldn't steal, and killing him only made it so much worse", "that guy stole from me, and I was just trying to get the money back, but when he pulled a gun on me and said he'd kill me rather than let me take it back, I felt I had to kill him; in retrospect, I wish I had thought of another way to get the money back", "that guy was going to kill me then take my money, and I'm sorry that this was the case, but the only way I was going live was to kill him right then and there".... While some of those examples do offer an explanation, one can be specific about what one is apologizing for without offering an explanation (indeed, I think that's exactly what Dell did, and in their case I believe that is shameful, because they ought to be sorry for a lot more).

kiba 15y ago

It's a big world; if you are on the world stage, it is quite difficult not to offend somebody no matter what you do. There are experts in the fields of diplomacy and etiquette who devote their careers to getting this stuff right, and usually even then there is someone offended about efforts to be so "proper". ;-) Can you give evidence for what you believe in?

deleted 15y ago
[deleted]

erikpukinskis 15y ago

This has nothing to do with being "upset" or "offended" or "proper" or "etiquette". It has to do with little girls growing up thinking there are entire categories of things they can't do. And it has to do with grown women being unable to do their jobs because too much of their time is spend dealing with the fact that their coworkers can't handle working with a woman. I'm not "offended" that Dell is contributing to that, I'm sad.

antihero 15y ago

> it is quite difficult not to offend somebody no matter what you do. Avoiding having a guy that is blatantly sexist and misogynistic is not exactly hard nowadays.