3 ms·

It's just a press release, and it looks like they haven't released anything beyond what was published in another press release in December: https://www.clinica

It's just a press release, and it looks like they haven't released anything beyond what was published in another press release in December: https://www.clinicaltrialsarena.com/news/mindmed-trial-anxiety-disorder/?cf-view https://www.clinicaltrialsarena.com/news/mindmed-trial-anxie... Still no study published, no information about blinding effectiveness. It does say that adverse events include hallucinations, which doesn't bode well for effective blinding. So far there isn't really any strong evidence that hallucinogens including ketamine are more effective than placebo at relieving anxiety or depression (see for example the recent study showing no difference to placebo for ketamine under anaesthetic), even though we all strongly wish they were.

swatcoder 3y ago
> see for example the recent study showing no difference to placebo for ketamine under anaesthetic That's not counterevidence to ketamine's efficacy, it's evidence that the efficacy, if prior studies soundly demonstrated it, relies somehow on the user not being anesthetized during the treatment. I don't think that surprises many advocates of psychodelic or hallucinogenic therapies. And these are not the first class of treatments where blinding isn't practical. It does confound some forms of analysis when you can't acheive real blinding, but we've devised many alternative forms of analysis that we take as scientifically "good enough" to treat something as medicine.
- WhitneyLand 3y ago
  Ketamine is an anesthetic. Seems like the study raises serious questions about efficacy.
  - sterlind 3y ago
    Ketamine is a dissociative that's used as an anesthetic. General anesthesia is a different beast. The precise mechanism GAs use isn't understood, but they cause slow waves of electrical activity to wash over the brain, constantly resetting neural networks and preventing communication, leading to coma. This includes breathing, which is why the patient needs to be intubated. Ketamine doesn't stop respiration. It causes profound dissociation and hallucinations, but I don't think it causes coma. It's definitely doing different things than GAs, at least. So it doesn't seem unreasonable that ketamine wouldn't work if you're in a coma. I'd be surprised if LSD did either. Or anything, for that matter. There's not a lot metabolically happening in a neuron under coma.
    - pas 3y ago
      Propofol works even on Venus flytrap plants. That's how deep this particular 'off' switch seems to be wired in. (It's blocking the presynaptic sodium and calcium channels.)
    - LoganDark 3y ago
      I think in other words, stuff like ketamine and LSD don't perform magic all on their own. You have to be consciously experiencing it in order for them to have any effect on you.
jdietrich 3y ago
>(see for example the recent study showing no difference to placebo for ketamine under anaesthetic) Ketamine is an anaesthetic and has the same mechanism of action as inhalational anaesthetics. A trial of ketamine+anaesthetic vs placebo+anaesthetic might indicate that ketamine is no better than placebo, but equally it could indicate that general anaesthesia is an effective antidepressant. Your NMDA receptors don't particularly care whether they're being antagonised by ketamine, nitrous oxide or isoflurane. https://www.nature.com/articles/s44220-023-00140-x https://www.nature.com/articles/s44220-023-00140-x
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
WarOnPrivacy 3y ago
> It's just a press release [and seemingly not] beyond what was published in December Stock spike on Thru but not Dec (to <$10/share). The 6 mos trend might support what you're saying tho. Also, me ! a $ wonk. ref:https://www.marketwatch.com/story/mindmeds-stock-jumps-24-after-fda-grants-breakthrough-designation-to-lsd-therapy-for-a-form-of-anxiety-c5d230c5 https://www.marketwatch.com/story/mindmeds-stock-jumps-24-af...

swatcoder 3y ago

> see for example the recent study showing no difference to placebo for ketamine under anaesthetic That's not counterevidence to ketamine's efficacy, it's evidence that the efficacy, if prior studies soundly demonstrated it, relies somehow on the user not being anesthetized during the treatment. I don't think that surprises many advocates of psychodelic or hallucinogenic therapies. And these are not the first class of treatments where blinding isn't practical. It does confound some forms of analysis when you can't acheive real blinding, but we've devised many alternative forms of analysis that we take as scientifically "good enough" to treat something as medicine.

WhitneyLand 3y ago
Ketamine is an anesthetic. Seems like the study raises serious questions about efficacy.
- sterlind 3y ago
  Ketamine is a dissociative that's used as an anesthetic. General anesthesia is a different beast. The precise mechanism GAs use isn't understood, but they cause slow waves of electrical activity to wash over the brain, constantly resetting neural networks and preventing communication, leading to coma. This includes breathing, which is why the patient needs to be intubated. Ketamine doesn't stop respiration. It causes profound dissociation and hallucinations, but I don't think it causes coma. It's definitely doing different things than GAs, at least. So it doesn't seem unreasonable that ketamine wouldn't work if you're in a coma. I'd be surprised if LSD did either. Or anything, for that matter. There's not a lot metabolically happening in a neuron under coma.
  - pas 3y ago
    Propofol works even on Venus flytrap plants. That's how deep this particular 'off' switch seems to be wired in. (It's blocking the presynaptic sodium and calcium channels.)
  - LoganDark 3y ago
    I think in other words, stuff like ketamine and LSD don't perform magic all on their own. You have to be consciously experiencing it in order for them to have any effect on you.

jdietrich 3y ago

>(see for example the recent study showing no difference to placebo for ketamine under anaesthetic) Ketamine is an anaesthetic and has the same mechanism of action as inhalational anaesthetics. A trial of ketamine+anaesthetic vs placebo+anaesthetic might indicate that ketamine is no better than placebo, but equally it could indicate that general anaesthesia is an effective antidepressant. Your NMDA receptors don't particularly care whether they're being antagonised by ketamine, nitrous oxide or isoflurane. https://www.nature.com/articles/s44220-023-00140-x https://www.nature.com/articles/s44220-023-00140-x

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]

WarOnPrivacy 3y ago

> It's just a press release [and seemingly not] beyond what was published in December Stock spike on Thru but not Dec (to <$10/share). The 6 mos trend might support what you're saying tho. Also, me ! a $ wonk. ref:https://www.marketwatch.com/story/mindmeds-stock-jumps-24-after-fda-grants-breakthrough-designation-to-lsd-therapy-for-a-form-of-anxiety-c5d230c5 https://www.marketwatch.com/story/mindmeds-stock-jumps-24-af...