4 ms·

I speak Hebrew and I listen to a broad range of voices coming out of Israel. Do you? If you tell me what country you're from I'll try the same trick on you, ta

by YZF 3y ago

I speak Hebrew and I listen to a broad range of voices coming out of Israel. Do you? If you tell me what country you're from I'll try the same trick on you, take some selective voices from your "leadership" and present them as if they're policy or the official position of your country. Punishment or retribution is not Israel's policy here and is not what's being executed on the ground. Are there some crazy voices in Israeli politics. Yes. That proves nothing. Also many of those voices were heard in the immediate aftermath of Oct 7th that was so brutal, barbaric, and shocking, that "blood was boiling" and emotions ran high. What you're saying here is basically blood libel. To take your analogies, it's not different than the stories about Jews drinking the blood of Christian children. It's an antisemitic lie in the form you present it. That people have the audacity to draw comparisons between what the Nazis did to the Jews and what's going on in Gaza is mind boggling.

bjourne 3y ago
How can you claim that what a minister says is not indicative of government policy? How come you are in a better position to interpret government policy than the ministers themselves? "I have ordered a complete siege on the Gaza Strip. There will be no electricity, no food, no fuel, everything is closed ... we are fighting against human animals" - Israel's defense minister. "You must remember what Amalek has done to you" Israel's fucking prime minister. "It is an entire nation out there that is responsible" Israel's president. You have 100 Israeli doctors calling for Israel to bomb a hospital: https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20231106-100-israel-doctors-calls-for-bombing-al-shifa-hospital-in-gaza/ https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20231106-100-israel-doctor... It is very clear that what is going on is fueled by vengeance. Israel knows it can't destroy Hamas, but it can make the civilians suffer which it thinks will act as a deterrent. "Was it worth it?" they ask and hope that future Palestinians will answer "No". You can accuse me of blood libel all you want, but this is exactly what the Nazis did to resistance groups in the territories they occupied. And the German people cheered them on, just like the Israelis do now.
- YZF 3y ago
  I can claim it because it is true. A minister (that is part of a coalition of many parties in Israel) is not indicative of government policy. There are some pretty whacky ministers in the Israeli government right now with some pretty weird opinions. This is not Israeli policy. Policy is determined by Cabinet and broader government votes, not by what people are saying (responding emotionally or trying to appease some political base). It's also what's executed on the ground. Israel's government is also subject to judicial oversight, the government can't just do whatever it wants. You just don't understand Israel's political system and how it works, and you're taking statements either made under extreme emotional states or by extremists and presenting them as official policy. You're taking the Israeli defense minister quote, a snippet of it, made at the height of shock, as factual policy, when you know this is not true on the ground, e.g. Israel is letting food and fuel in and has not laid a complete siege on Gaza since Oct 7th. It also supplies Gaza with water. I'll concede that in the immediate shock after the barbaric Oct 7th attack there were some very strong statements made but actual policy has been within the laws of war. Gallant was also mostly referring to what Israel supplies Gaza but Israel has no direct control over the Gaza-Egypt border. His referral of "fighting human animals" was referring to Hamas's Oct 7th rape, mutilation, murder, torture, etc. Maybe not the best choice of words. I am going to maintain that this is a blood libel. I do think I'm in a better position to interpret government policy because I actually listen to the broader voices and understand how the system works. You're obviously not exposed to the broad public discourse in Israel but rather to highly filtered/cherry-picked views. "Israel is doing all it can to get civilians out of harm's way as it battles Hamas in Gaza, including dropping leaflets warning them to flee, but its attempts to minimize casualties were "not successful", Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said on Thursday.": https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israel-not-successful-bid-minimize-gaza-civilian-casualties-netanyahu-says-2023-11-17/ https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israel-not-success... "A senior aide to Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said Israel’s military is undertaking a “maximum effort” to minimize civilian casualties amid its military campaign in Gaza.": https://thehill.com/policy/international/4269020-netanyahu-adviser-israel-minimize-civilian-casualties-gaza/ https://thehill.com/policy/international/4269020-netanyahu-a... "“We don’t seek to govern Gaza, we don’t seek to occupy it. But we seek to give it and us a better future … and that requires defeating Hamas,” he said. “I’ve set goals, I didn’t set a timetable because it can take more time.”: https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/11/10/netanyahu-says-not-seeking-to-occupy-gaza-but-strip-must-be-deradicalised https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/11/10/netanyahu-says-not... "The PMO said that when Netanyahu used the biblical quotation “Remember what Amalek did to you,” he was using it as a way of describing the savage Hamas attack of October 7, and certainly not as a call for wanton killings. The PMO pointed out that the same phrase appears in a permanent exhibit at the Yad Vashem Holocaust museum, as well at a memorial in The Hague itself for Dutch Jews murdered in the Holocaust. “Obviously neither reference is an incitement to genocide of the German people,” the PMO said." https://www.timesofisrael.com/pms-office-says-its-preposterous-to-say-invoking-amalek-was-a-genocide-call/ https://www.timesofisrael.com/pms-office-says-its-prepostero... "President ‘disgusted’ by judges using ‘partial, fragmented quotes’ in genocide ruling, ignoring accompanying remarks that Israel follows international law, doesn’t target civilians" https://www.timesofisrael.com/a-blood-libel-herzog-says-icj-twisted-my-words-to-support-unfounded-contention/ https://www.timesofisrael.com/a-blood-libel-herzog-says-icj-... The IDF spokesperson has said hundreds of times in his daily briefings that the war is not against Palestinians, it's against Hamas: "“I’ve seen, personally, many types of targets that we have. The resolution of the intelligence, as in whose house it is, which Hamas commander uses the facility or what the offices in a certain building are used by Hamas for,” Conricus said. “I can tell you that the intelligence is solid and it is focused and that we are striking targets that are directly related to Hamas and not targets that don’t have anything to do with them.” https://thehill.com/homenews/media/4250823-tapper-presses-idf-spokesperson-on-palestinian-civilian-casualties/ https://thehill.com/homenews/media/4250823-tapper-presses-id... ""I want to be clear from the beginning, there is not a single drop of cynicism about Palestinian civilian casualties. We do not want and we are not trying to achieve any casualties. Our fight is against the evil terrorist organization Hamas. It is them that we are targeting, not the civilian population. But unfortunately, because Hamas hides behind them, unfortunately, civilians get caught in the middle," he said." https://www.business-standard.com/world-news/hamas-prefers-to-have-fuel-for-warfighting-capabilities-idf-spokesperson-123102600271_1.html https://www.business-standard.com/world-news/hamas-prefers-t... EDIT: and again, the comparison of Israel to the Nazis is ignorant and disgusting.

by YZF 3y ago

bjourne 3y ago

How can you claim that what a minister says is not indicative of government policy? How come you are in a better position to interpret government policy than the ministers themselves? "I have ordered a complete siege on the Gaza Strip. There will be no electricity, no food, no fuel, everything is closed ... we are fighting against human animals" - Israel's defense minister. "You must remember what Amalek has done to you" Israel's fucking prime minister. "It is an entire nation out there that is responsible" Israel's president. You have 100 Israeli doctors calling for Israel to bomb a hospital: https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20231106-100-israel-doctors-calls-for-bombing-al-shifa-hospital-in-gaza/ https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20231106-100-israel-doctor... It is very clear that what is going on is fueled by vengeance. Israel knows it can't destroy Hamas, but it can make the civilians suffer which it thinks will act as a deterrent. "Was it worth it?" they ask and hope that future Palestinians will answer "No". You can accuse me of blood libel all you want, but this is exactly what the Nazis did to resistance groups in the territories they occupied. And the German people cheered them on, just like the Israelis do now.

YZF 3y ago
I can claim it because it is true. A minister (that is part of a coalition of many parties in Israel) is not indicative of government policy. There are some pretty whacky ministers in the Israeli government right now with some pretty weird opinions. This is not Israeli policy. Policy is determined by Cabinet and broader government votes, not by what people are saying (responding emotionally or trying to appease some political base). It's also what's executed on the ground. Israel's government is also subject to judicial oversight, the government can't just do whatever it wants. You just don't understand Israel's political system and how it works, and you're taking statements either made under extreme emotional states or by extremists and presenting them as official policy. You're taking the Israeli defense minister quote, a snippet of it, made at the height of shock, as factual policy, when you know this is not true on the ground, e.g. Israel is letting food and fuel in and has not laid a complete siege on Gaza since Oct 7th. It also supplies Gaza with water. I'll concede that in the immediate shock after the barbaric Oct 7th attack there were some very strong statements made but actual policy has been within the laws of war. Gallant was also mostly referring to what Israel supplies Gaza but Israel has no direct control over the Gaza-Egypt border. His referral of "fighting human animals" was referring to Hamas's Oct 7th rape, mutilation, murder, torture, etc. Maybe not the best choice of words. I am going to maintain that this is a blood libel. I do think I'm in a better position to interpret government policy because I actually listen to the broader voices and understand how the system works. You're obviously not exposed to the broad public discourse in Israel but rather to highly filtered/cherry-picked views. "Israel is doing all it can to get civilians out of harm's way as it battles Hamas in Gaza, including dropping leaflets warning them to flee, but its attempts to minimize casualties were "not successful", Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said on Thursday.": https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israel-not-successful-bid-minimize-gaza-civilian-casualties-netanyahu-says-2023-11-17/ https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israel-not-success... "A senior aide to Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said Israel’s military is undertaking a “maximum effort” to minimize civilian casualties amid its military campaign in Gaza.": https://thehill.com/policy/international/4269020-netanyahu-adviser-israel-minimize-civilian-casualties-gaza/ https://thehill.com/policy/international/4269020-netanyahu-a... "“We don’t seek to govern Gaza, we don’t seek to occupy it. But we seek to give it and us a better future … and that requires defeating Hamas,” he said. “I’ve set goals, I didn’t set a timetable because it can take more time.”: https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/11/10/netanyahu-says-not-seeking-to-occupy-gaza-but-strip-must-be-deradicalised https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/11/10/netanyahu-says-not... "The PMO said that when Netanyahu used the biblical quotation “Remember what Amalek did to you,” he was using it as a way of describing the savage Hamas attack of October 7, and certainly not as a call for wanton killings. The PMO pointed out that the same phrase appears in a permanent exhibit at the Yad Vashem Holocaust museum, as well at a memorial in The Hague itself for Dutch Jews murdered in the Holocaust. “Obviously neither reference is an incitement to genocide of the German people,” the PMO said." https://www.timesofisrael.com/pms-office-says-its-preposterous-to-say-invoking-amalek-was-a-genocide-call/ https://www.timesofisrael.com/pms-office-says-its-prepostero... "President ‘disgusted’ by judges using ‘partial, fragmented quotes’ in genocide ruling, ignoring accompanying remarks that Israel follows international law, doesn’t target civilians" https://www.timesofisrael.com/a-blood-libel-herzog-says-icj-twisted-my-words-to-support-unfounded-contention/ https://www.timesofisrael.com/a-blood-libel-herzog-says-icj-... The IDF spokesperson has said hundreds of times in his daily briefings that the war is not against Palestinians, it's against Hamas: "“I’ve seen, personally, many types of targets that we have. The resolution of the intelligence, as in whose house it is, which Hamas commander uses the facility or what the offices in a certain building are used by Hamas for,” Conricus said. “I can tell you that the intelligence is solid and it is focused and that we are striking targets that are directly related to Hamas and not targets that don’t have anything to do with them.” https://thehill.com/homenews/media/4250823-tapper-presses-idf-spokesperson-on-palestinian-civilian-casualties/ https://thehill.com/homenews/media/4250823-tapper-presses-id... ""I want to be clear from the beginning, there is not a single drop of cynicism about Palestinian civilian casualties. We do not want and we are not trying to achieve any casualties. Our fight is against the evil terrorist organization Hamas. It is them that we are targeting, not the civilian population. But unfortunately, because Hamas hides behind them, unfortunately, civilians get caught in the middle," he said." https://www.business-standard.com/world-news/hamas-prefers-to-have-fuel-for-warfighting-capabilities-idf-spokesperson-123102600271_1.html https://www.business-standard.com/world-news/hamas-prefers-t... EDIT: and again, the comparison of Israel to the Nazis is ignorant and disgusting.