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> Do either of the following: (1) Provide Apple a stand-by letter of credit in the amount of €1,000,000 from a financial institution (...) (2) be a member of go

> Do either of the following: (1) Provide Apple a stand-by letter of credit in the amount of €1,000,000 from a financial institution (...) (2) be a member of good standing in the Apple Developer Program for two continuous years or more, and have an app that had more than one million first annual installs on iOS in the EU in the prior calendar year. Ok, so that's a no for startups.

k8sToGo 3y ago
Why would a startup need their own store?
- consp 3y ago
  Why can a startup not provide one or become one?
  - Osiris 3y ago
    For what reason does Apple need a million dollar bond for someone to release an App Store? They don’t for regular apps. What’s the difference?
    - kyriakos 3y ago
      Clearly to ensure not everyone opens a store just to publish their single app that would otherwise not make it on the app store due to its content. The same reason they won't allow stores that only host first party apps. Both of these rules are made to stop this. Either apple found a clever way to comply to DMA without actually doing so or we'll soon be hearing from EU and apple will backtrack as it did with PWAs and Epic account.
      - leereeves 3y ago
        > to publish their single app that would otherwise not make it on the app store Isn't publishing apps that wouldn't make it on the App Store the whole reason for alternatives? Apple's still looking for a way to undermine the DMA.
        kyriakos 3y ago
        That's exactly what I'm saying. Apple is creating its own rules to make it as hard as possible while pretending they opened up.
  - k8sToGo 3y ago
    I am trying to figure out the advantage. The way it is implemented now the App Store wouldn’t be fully independent anyways and still bound to review processes.
    - giobox 3y ago
      > The way it is implemented now the App Store wouldn’t be fully independent anyways and still bound to review processes. This is entirely the point many people are up in arms about - the implementation is the problem, not the concept of alternate app stores as such. There is nothing in most people's definition of a generic "app marketplace" that involves the steps Apple are demanding at present (stand by letter of credit for a million dollars etc). If it was implemented fairly (and IMHO in the original spirit of the EU legislation), its pretty obvious what the advantages would be; being able to compete with Apple to offer lower fees and thus hopefully attract developers and sales. Most outside observers with a reasonable understanding of the facts and a capacity for independent thought do not think this process is fair or implemented in the spirit of the legislation at all. Apple have made the process about as difficult as they could get away with while still appearing to follow the rules to secure their existing app store moat as best they could.
- Pwntheon 3y ago
  Maybe someone wants to start up a new store?
  - k8sToGo 3y ago
    But for what? You still need to submit your app through the Apple review process. If this was true Sideloading I’d understand but the way it is now I don’t see any advantage.
- ParkClarke 3y ago
  Should Valve have had a million dollars for Microsoft to be able to launch Steam?
  - k8sToGo 3y ago
    Considering I can install any app on the PC, this comparison doesn’t make sense. AFAIK Apple still reviews and gatekeeps any app. Even from other app stores.
  - hcks 3y ago
    Honestly it would have been better if they never launched it
_hl_ 3y ago
It’s certainly not easy and apple is playing the malicious compliance game here. But it’s not impossible for a (even pre-product) startup to raise a $1M line of credit from a bank through some creative financing shenanigans without locking up too much working capital or otherwise.
- vanviegen 3y ago
  Sure. That's why Apple added the second condition.
  - sergioisidoro 3y ago
    I'm not sure if you can call a company with one million downloads in the previous year a startup anymore...
  - bragr 3y ago
    No it specifically says, "Do either of the following:". You can either have the letter of credit or be a known quantity. Presumably it you launch your marketplace and it goes well, after 2 years you don't need the letter of credit.
- creativeSlumber 3y ago
  > startup to raise a $1M line of credit from a bank through some creative financing shenanigans The whole point of that $1M is to send send the message "stay out". It's like a rattle snake shaking it's tail. Basically anyone doing this has to treat that money as throw away money since Apple may keep that money for whatever reason, including criticizing them on current/future TOS policy changes.
  - rad_gruchalski 3y ago
    > The whole point of that $1M is to send send the message "stay out" Alternative take: the whole point of €1m is to send a signal “I’m serious about doing this”.
  - _hl_ 3y ago

k8sToGo 3y ago

Why would a startup need their own store?

consp 3y ago
Why can a startup not provide one or become one?
- Osiris 3y ago
  For what reason does Apple need a million dollar bond for someone to release an App Store? They don’t for regular apps. What’s the difference?
  - kyriakos 3y ago
    Clearly to ensure not everyone opens a store just to publish their single app that would otherwise not make it on the app store due to its content. The same reason they won't allow stores that only host first party apps. Both of these rules are made to stop this. Either apple found a clever way to comply to DMA without actually doing so or we'll soon be hearing from EU and apple will backtrack as it did with PWAs and Epic account.
    - leereeves 3y ago
      > to publish their single app that would otherwise not make it on the app store Isn't publishing apps that wouldn't make it on the App Store the whole reason for alternatives? Apple's still looking for a way to undermine the DMA.
      - kyriakos 3y ago
        That's exactly what I'm saying. Apple is creating its own rules to make it as hard as possible while pretending they opened up.
- k8sToGo 3y ago
  I am trying to figure out the advantage. The way it is implemented now the App Store wouldn’t be fully independent anyways and still bound to review processes.
  - giobox 3y ago
    > The way it is implemented now the App Store wouldn’t be fully independent anyways and still bound to review processes. This is entirely the point many people are up in arms about - the implementation is the problem, not the concept of alternate app stores as such. There is nothing in most people's definition of a generic "app marketplace" that involves the steps Apple are demanding at present (stand by letter of credit for a million dollars etc). If it was implemented fairly (and IMHO in the original spirit of the EU legislation), its pretty obvious what the advantages would be; being able to compete with Apple to offer lower fees and thus hopefully attract developers and sales. Most outside observers with a reasonable understanding of the facts and a capacity for independent thought do not think this process is fair or implemented in the spirit of the legislation at all. Apple have made the process about as difficult as they could get away with while still appearing to follow the rules to secure their existing app store moat as best they could.
Pwntheon 3y ago
Maybe someone wants to start up a new store?
- k8sToGo 3y ago
  But for what? You still need to submit your app through the Apple review process. If this was true Sideloading I’d understand but the way it is now I don’t see any advantage.
ParkClarke 3y ago
Should Valve have had a million dollars for Microsoft to be able to launch Steam?
- k8sToGo 3y ago
  Considering I can install any app on the PC, this comparison doesn’t make sense. AFAIK Apple still reviews and gatekeeps any app. Even from other app stores.
- hcks 3y ago
  Honestly it would have been better if they never launched it

_hl_ 3y ago

It’s certainly not easy and apple is playing the malicious compliance game here. But it’s not impossible for a (even pre-product) startup to raise a $1M line of credit from a bank through some creative financing shenanigans without locking up too much working capital or otherwise.

vanviegen 3y ago
Sure. That's why Apple added the second condition.
- sergioisidoro 3y ago
  I'm not sure if you can call a company with one million downloads in the previous year a startup anymore...
- bragr 3y ago
  No it specifically says, "Do either of the following:". You can either have the letter of credit or be a known quantity. Presumably it you launch your marketplace and it goes well, after 2 years you don't need the letter of credit.
creativeSlumber 3y ago
> startup to raise a $1M line of credit from a bank through some creative financing shenanigans The whole point of that $1M is to send send the message "stay out". It's like a rattle snake shaking it's tail. Basically anyone doing this has to treat that money as throw away money since Apple may keep that money for whatever reason, including criticizing them on current/future TOS policy changes.
- rad_gruchalski 3y ago
  > The whole point of that $1M is to send send the message "stay out" Alternative take: the whole point of €1m is to send a signal “I’m serious about doing this”.
- _hl_ 3y ago