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>>> Appropriately applied anything is good. I am disputing whether this is an appropriate application. >> Ok, explain why this animation is not an appropriate

>>> Appropriately applied anything is good. I am disputing whether this is an appropriate application. >> Ok, explain why this animation is not an appropriate application of this animation in a technical demonstration of this animation. > Thought so. > the only reason people can disagree with you is because they are stupid or because they haven't actually read what you said. What I initially said is based in common industry practice and backed up by papers from academia, independent usability organizations like the Nielsen Norman group, and plenty of other independent entities. It's not secret-- lots of info is a quick google search away. It's nuanced. Lots of the info is in literature about accessibility-specific topics like designing for people with cognitive problems of various stripes, low vision, photosensitive epilepsy and similar conditions, motion sickness, and all sort of other less common neurological considerations. The default state of UI design is not adding anything unless it adds something specific and justifiable and doesn't kill any other sort of accessibility. Lots of interfaces violate those rules. Lots of interfaces are not designed by UI designers. Pointing to bad practices in those interfaces isn't an indictment of UI design or any of the practices that UI designers have. Your refusal to acknowledge all of this doesn't oblige me to gather empirical evidence to defend it. I also wouldn't go gather a list of citations to defend the concept of OO programming to a crowd of non-or-slightly-technical designers subconsciously influenced by groupthink and a few clojure evangelists they'd worked with, citing code they saw in shitty wordpress plugins and ignorantly insisting OOP was the problem. Right, surely it would have been good code otherwise. In this comment section, literally zero of the very critical people, you included, has responded with anything aside from some combination of personal preference, developer folk wisdom, and off-base assumptions, all buttressed with mistaken confidence. If you refuse to correct that with all of the info at your fingertips, that's your problem, not mine. > I'm sorry that I don't havee the opinions you want me to have so that I'm wrong. Ok let's break this down. A copout is avoiding responsibility for something, and in rhetoric, it's when you avoid addressing a direct point with nonspecific challenges to the premise, or by changing the premise to something that will still let you be right. For example, "Surely if you stumbled upon a bunch of designers making sweeping, arrogant, unsupported declarations about software development and the incompetence of developers, you'd trip over yourself to gather any evidence they demanded to prove your point when you corrected them on their foundational misgivings. Surely you wouldn't just tell them to go google it for themselves." This is a very cut-and-dried statement. Here's your verbatim response: "I would likely agree with them. Most software is quite bad, and most of it isn't designed much better. When I say a lot of designers are wasting time on this stuff, I base this on developers doing the same thing." Rather than addressing the clear premise of how you'd respond to sweeping, arrogant, and unsupported criticism by arrogant laypeople, you change the premise to one where those designers are making criticisms you agree with. It completely avoids the obvious point, which is that you obviously wouldn't feel the need to cite your arguments in the face of baseless criticism from laypeople. Go ahead and protect your ego by pretending I disregarded your legitimate response. Limber yourself up for some sort of 5 layer deep mental gymnastics about my being the one that was really changing the premise, or the like. But you're clearly not interested in honestly evaluating the veracity of anything you're saying, so I'm done here. Most professionals get irritated when randos that think they're experts make a bunch of BS criticism of their professional practices. But developers are unique in that they get equally rankled by implications that knowing how to code doesn't give them expertise in everybody else's fields, too.

James_K 3y ago
> Rather than addressing the clear premise of how you'd respond to sweeping, arrogant, and unsupported criticism by arrogant laypeople Except I did address that in the next sentence[1]. Maybe you should read my comments before you write all this and accuse me of not reading yours. > Thought so. > The default state of UI design is not adding anything unless it adds something specific and justifiable and doesn't kill any other sort of accessibility I did actually explain why it is not appropriate (that it communicates something specific which is contradictory to the way I often see it used). I'll add that it feels much worse than the native form widgets in websites where I often see it used, and it can degrade usability by being a non-standard input method. I also should point out that the null hypothesis doesn't need explaining. You've said yourself that the default state is not adding something, i.e. assume it is not appropriate until there is evidence to the contrary. The burden of proof is on you, and that is why I didn't deem that sentence worthy of specific reply. > In this comment section, literally zero of the very critical people, you included, has responded with anything aside from some combination of personal preference I don't control the actions of other people. That said, I did as you asked yesterday and looked it up, and the only study I could find said users didn't like toggles[2][3]. Wherever toggles are compared to binary non-toggle options, the other options are preferred though there is a degree of subjectivity to it. The only reason I didn't post it is because I assumed you were already familiar with the literature on the matter. > Your refusal to acknowledge all of this doesn't oblige me to gather empirical evidence to defend it. If it is as easy as you claim, it would be a lot less effort than writing all this and it would actually convince me you are correct (which I assume is your objective but it may not be). That seems like a much better option than calling me egotistical and stupid. [1] "If the people making these claims were incorrect about something, I would simply explain why that is rather than saying "I have a bunch of experience that you don't have and there are some studies that prove your silly little feelings wrong. Your opinions are worthless compared to mine."" - James K (2024) [2] Plaisant, C., & Wallace, D. (1990). Touchscreen toggle switches: Push or slide? Design issues and usability study (CS-TR-2557, CAR-TR-521). University of Maryland. [3] Alyaa Al-Jasim and Pietro Murano. 2023. Designing User Interface Toggles for Usability. J. User Exper. 18, 4 (August 2023), 175–199.
- chefandy 3y ago

James_K 3y ago

> Rather than addressing the clear premise of how you'd respond to sweeping, arrogant, and unsupported criticism by arrogant laypeople Except I did address that in the next sentence[1]. Maybe you should read my comments before you write all this and accuse me of not reading yours. > Thought so. > The default state of UI design is not adding anything unless it adds something specific and justifiable and doesn't kill any other sort of accessibility I did actually explain why it is not appropriate (that it communicates something specific which is contradictory to the way I often see it used). I'll add that it feels much worse than the native form widgets in websites where I often see it used, and it can degrade usability by being a non-standard input method. I also should point out that the null hypothesis doesn't need explaining. You've said yourself that the default state is not adding something, i.e. assume it is not appropriate until there is evidence to the contrary. The burden of proof is on you, and that is why I didn't deem that sentence worthy of specific reply. > In this comment section, literally zero of the very critical people, you included, has responded with anything aside from some combination of personal preference I don't control the actions of other people. That said, I did as you asked yesterday and looked it up, and the only study I could find said users didn't like toggles[2][3]. Wherever toggles are compared to binary non-toggle options, the other options are preferred though there is a degree of subjectivity to it. The only reason I didn't post it is because I assumed you were already familiar with the literature on the matter. > Your refusal to acknowledge all of this doesn't oblige me to gather empirical evidence to defend it. If it is as easy as you claim, it would be a lot less effort than writing all this and it would actually convince me you are correct (which I assume is your objective but it may not be). That seems like a much better option than calling me egotistical and stupid. [1] "If the people making these claims were incorrect about something, I would simply explain why that is rather than saying "I have a bunch of experience that you don't have and there are some studies that prove your silly little feelings wrong. Your opinions are worthless compared to mine."" - James K (2024) [2] Plaisant, C., & Wallace, D. (1990). Touchscreen toggle switches: Push or slide? Design issues and usability study (CS-TR-2557, CAR-TR-521). University of Maryland. [3] Alyaa Al-Jasim and Pietro Murano. 2023. Designing User Interface Toggles for Usability. J. User Exper. 18, 4 (August 2023), 175–199.

chefandy 3y ago