4 ms·

I think it's essentially, because Toyota is the best at hybrid technology that many people who want hybrids are only willing to purchase Toyotas. I don't think

I think it's essentially, because Toyota is the best at hybrid technology that many people who want hybrids are only willing to purchase Toyotas. I don't think this is duplicatable by the auto industry as a whole. I'm not going to buy something as complicated as a hybrid from General Motors, most American car companies or some European brand, when they can't even build very reliable combustion vehicles. Imagine what it would cost to repair such a vehicle from those manufacturers. It's more about Toyota knowing their strengths and successfully delivering a lineup that honors those strengths than some strategy the other manufacturers are missing. Personally when I consider buying a Prius Prime or a Model 3 for a similar price with a shorter lead time, I'm going to buy the Model 3 every time.

vel0city 3y ago
It's not even just that people are only willing to buy Toyota hybrids. In some places in the US Toyotas are just about the only hybrids one can easily buy. Good luck buying a Ford hybrid if you're not in California, practically none are allotted to my area.
a_gnostic 3y ago
So how about an Edison?
gilbetron 3y ago
Why would you get a Tesla over a Toyota, Toyota crushes them on reliability. As a bonus, you aren't supporting a narcissistic asshat ;)
- decafninja 3y ago
  As much as I agree with your sentiment on Elon, some people don’t want an appliancemobile even if it means sacrificing some amount of reliability. For example, I’d personally take a Jaguar or Alfa Romeo (two brands particularly famous for lack of reliability) over most Toyotas short of one of their niche models like their GRs or old school SUVs.
  - dragonwriter 3y ago
    Yeah, Toyota is a poor choice if your goal with a vehicle is conspicuous consumption status signaling rather than transportation.
    - decafninja 3y ago
      Or, if you actually… like driving. Again, exceptions being made for stuff like their GR cars which are quite excellent for that purpose. So many people fail to understand some people actually like driving. It has nothing to do with showing off how rich you are, other than that the intersection of expensive cars and drivers’ cars overlaps quite a bit.
      - dividedcomet 3y ago
        I’d disagree on that. While they’re not overly exciting like a little MX-5, my new base model hybrid Corolla has plenty of pickup and go for whatever I need, and coming from a truck, I find it “fun” to drive. And I love driving my Tacoma off-road! I think Toyota are right to make a more appliance-y car, which is still super fun to drive, but doesn’t lose what’s most important, cost and reliability.
  - gilbetron 3y ago
    Fair point - usually if someone is comparing to a Toyota, they would be interested in reliability, because you don't look at them for performance or excitement ;) They are, as an automotive industry friend described, an automotive appliance.
xnx 3y ago
> I'm not going to buy something as complicated as a hybrid from General Motors Aren't some hybrids less complicated than internal combustion engine vehicles? https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30044695 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30044695
- brnt 3y ago
  How can I find this out on a given model? From what I've seen only the i3 actually simplified this way, but I haven't gone in depth on it since then and that discussion doesn't refer to any specific models.
  - xnx 3y ago
    That will probably take some research. This might be a good starting point: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hybrid_vehicle_drivetrain#Power-split_or_series-parallel_hybrid https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hybrid_vehicle_drivetrain#Powe...
- SkyPuncher 3y ago
  Not at all. You still need every single component of an ICE vehicle. However, they all need to be electrically driven, rather than belt driven (since the engine isn't always running). That gives more engineering freedom, but it doesn't reduce any parts. In fact, every belt-driven system now needs it's own electric motor, including power.
  - adgjlsfhk1 3y ago
    > You still need every single component of an ICE vehicle. no you don't. you can skip the transmission and all the variable valve complications that modern ICEs have. Since you have a powerful electric engine, you no longer need the ICE to have good response or a flat torque curve since you can use electric power to fill in the gaps.
  - sgerenser 3y ago
    No that’s wrong. Toyota’s “Hybrid Synergy Drive” is greatly simplified on the ICE side. No traditional transmission, no alternator, no starter motor, and a not particularly complex Atkinson Cycle engine. Sure it adds one or more electric motors, but the overall complexity is not particularly high.
greenavocado 3y ago
Other manufacturers have licensed the hybrid platform
freedomben 3y ago
You're definitely on to something, but I think it's more than that. So many of the decision-makers on this live in big cities where EVs can easily be "refueled". Couple that with the heavy political pressure that has been coming from the biggest governments around the world to fully abandon gas* in an accelerated timetable (accelerated faster than what the market would normally deliver as EV tech becomes cheaper and more efficient than ICE), and it's not a big surprise that all the companies are towing the line. Toyota seems to be one of the only companies that is willing to testify before congress and point out what everybody living outside of major cities knows: The infrastructure is not there for many, many people to switch to EVs, and no matter how much we try to artificially force the market to do that, it's just not possible yet. This means that for most people, buying an EV means you are dramatically reducing the utility of your vehicle by ditching features such as ability to use your car on road trips without having to plan extensively to ensure there are charging stations where you need them, and that you have the time to sit and wait (and hope that the stations are available and aren't broken). I know quite a few people that have bought Teslas (or other EVs, but mostly Teslas) and all except one has expressed regret and wished they hadn't**, because they no longer have the same "freedom" that they had from their car before, namely the ability to use it whenever and wherever they wanted to go. The saddest case is a friend who loves to go into the mountains. He works from home and his kids have a bus to school, so his car is mainly used to occasionally run errands, and to go to the mountains. He can't use it for the mountains anymore because it's too risky! Running out of "fuel" is much more frequent and consequential. He also has very little towing capacity now. A lot of people are hearing about reality/experiences like this, and that is having an impact. Toyota not only seems prophetic, but like the only car company that is well positioned to address this. Hybrids are a great solution combining many of the pros of both EV and ICE. EVs are the future, but we can't just wish them into existence, even though plenty of people with enormous financial and political incentive to do so, will advocate for that approach. *And not for nothing. Obviously there are very real and concerning existential reasons why we want to abandon fossil fuels, but that doesn't change any of the economic and technological realities in which we must operate. **They do love them as commuter cars though without a doubt. The dream seems to be to have two cars: an EV for commuting and around-town and an ICE/hybrid for leaving the city
i80and 3y ago
The Chevy Volt definitely proved that GM could build a best-of-breed reliable hybrid!
- dragonwriter 3y ago
  The reason it doesn’t exist any more is that they didn’t prove they could do it profitably, though. I mean, sure, when they were willing to temporarily burn money to establish themselves in that market, they could do it, but they couldn’t make it profitable, so they retooled the plant to things they could make profit on.
bushbaba 3y ago
Chevy volt kind of disproved that. The car was solid, affordable, and had no reliability issues. Build quality at par with a Toyota.
- dragonwriter 3y ago
  And it lost money on every sale until it was discontinued. It’s easy mode to make something affordable if you are sufficiently willing to lose money on it, but that’s hardly a sustainable business.

vel0city 3y ago

It's not even just that people are only willing to buy Toyota hybrids. In some places in the US Toyotas are just about the only hybrids one can easily buy. Good luck buying a Ford hybrid if you're not in California, practically none are allotted to my area.

a_gnostic 3y ago

So how about an Edison?

gilbetron 3y ago

Why would you get a Tesla over a Toyota, Toyota crushes them on reliability. As a bonus, you aren't supporting a narcissistic asshat ;)

decafninja 3y ago
As much as I agree with your sentiment on Elon, some people don’t want an appliancemobile even if it means sacrificing some amount of reliability. For example, I’d personally take a Jaguar or Alfa Romeo (two brands particularly famous for lack of reliability) over most Toyotas short of one of their niche models like their GRs or old school SUVs.
- dragonwriter 3y ago
  Yeah, Toyota is a poor choice if your goal with a vehicle is conspicuous consumption status signaling rather than transportation.
  - decafninja 3y ago
    Or, if you actually… like driving. Again, exceptions being made for stuff like their GR cars which are quite excellent for that purpose. So many people fail to understand some people actually like driving. It has nothing to do with showing off how rich you are, other than that the intersection of expensive cars and drivers’ cars overlaps quite a bit.
    - dividedcomet 3y ago
      I’d disagree on that. While they’re not overly exciting like a little MX-5, my new base model hybrid Corolla has plenty of pickup and go for whatever I need, and coming from a truck, I find it “fun” to drive. And I love driving my Tacoma off-road! I think Toyota are right to make a more appliance-y car, which is still super fun to drive, but doesn’t lose what’s most important, cost and reliability.
- gilbetron 3y ago
  Fair point - usually if someone is comparing to a Toyota, they would be interested in reliability, because you don't look at them for performance or excitement ;) They are, as an automotive industry friend described, an automotive appliance.

xnx 3y ago

> I'm not going to buy something as complicated as a hybrid from General Motors Aren't some hybrids less complicated than internal combustion engine vehicles? https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30044695 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30044695

brnt 3y ago
How can I find this out on a given model? From what I've seen only the i3 actually simplified this way, but I haven't gone in depth on it since then and that discussion doesn't refer to any specific models.
- xnx 3y ago
  That will probably take some research. This might be a good starting point: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hybrid_vehicle_drivetrain#Power-split_or_series-parallel_hybrid https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hybrid_vehicle_drivetrain#Powe...
SkyPuncher 3y ago
Not at all. You still need every single component of an ICE vehicle. However, they all need to be electrically driven, rather than belt driven (since the engine isn't always running). That gives more engineering freedom, but it doesn't reduce any parts. In fact, every belt-driven system now needs it's own electric motor, including power.
- adgjlsfhk1 3y ago
  > You still need every single component of an ICE vehicle. no you don't. you can skip the transmission and all the variable valve complications that modern ICEs have. Since you have a powerful electric engine, you no longer need the ICE to have good response or a flat torque curve since you can use electric power to fill in the gaps.
- sgerenser 3y ago
  No that’s wrong. Toyota’s “Hybrid Synergy Drive” is greatly simplified on the ICE side. No traditional transmission, no alternator, no starter motor, and a not particularly complex Atkinson Cycle engine. Sure it adds one or more electric motors, but the overall complexity is not particularly high.

greenavocado 3y ago

Other manufacturers have licensed the hybrid platform

freedomben 3y ago

You're definitely on to something, but I think it's more than that. So many of the decision-makers on this live in big cities where EVs can easily be "refueled". Couple that with the heavy political pressure that has been coming from the biggest governments around the world to fully abandon gas* in an accelerated timetable (accelerated faster than what the market would normally deliver as EV tech becomes cheaper and more efficient than ICE), and it's not a big surprise that all the companies are towing the line. Toyota seems to be one of the only companies that is willing to testify before congress and point out what everybody living outside of major cities knows: The infrastructure is not there for many, many people to switch to EVs, and no matter how much we try to artificially force the market to do that, it's just not possible yet. This means that for most people, buying an EV means you are dramatically reducing the utility of your vehicle by ditching features such as ability to use your car on road trips without having to plan extensively to ensure there are charging stations where you need them, and that you have the time to sit and wait (and hope that the stations are available and aren't broken). I know quite a few people that have bought Teslas (or other EVs, but mostly Teslas) and all except one has expressed regret and wished they hadn't**, because they no longer have the same "freedom" that they had from their car before, namely the ability to use it whenever and wherever they wanted to go. The saddest case is a friend who loves to go into the mountains. He works from home and his kids have a bus to school, so his car is mainly used to occasionally run errands, and to go to the mountains. He can't use it for the mountains anymore because it's too risky! Running out of "fuel" is much more frequent and consequential. He also has very little towing capacity now. A lot of people are hearing about reality/experiences like this, and that is having an impact. Toyota not only seems prophetic, but like the only car company that is well positioned to address this. Hybrids are a great solution combining many of the pros of both EV and ICE. EVs are the future, but we can't just wish them into existence, even though plenty of people with enormous financial and political incentive to do so, will advocate for that approach. *And not for nothing. Obviously there are very real and concerning existential reasons why we want to abandon fossil fuels, but that doesn't change any of the economic and technological realities in which we must operate. **They do love them as commuter cars though without a doubt. The dream seems to be to have two cars: an EV for commuting and around-town and an ICE/hybrid for leaving the city

i80and 3y ago

The Chevy Volt definitely proved that GM could build a best-of-breed reliable hybrid!

dragonwriter 3y ago
The reason it doesn’t exist any more is that they didn’t prove they could do it profitably, though. I mean, sure, when they were willing to temporarily burn money to establish themselves in that market, they could do it, but they couldn’t make it profitable, so they retooled the plant to things they could make profit on.

bushbaba 3y ago

Chevy volt kind of disproved that. The car was solid, affordable, and had no reliability issues. Build quality at par with a Toyota.

dragonwriter 3y ago
And it lost money on every sale until it was discontinued. It’s easy mode to make something affordable if you are sufficiently willing to lose money on it, but that’s hardly a sustainable business.