3 ms·

I’m more surprised the CPU is allowed to peak at 114°C at all. x86 CPUs and GPUs usually have a recommended load temperature of ~85°C and start throttling heav

by jorvi 3y ago

I’m more surprised the CPU is allowed to peak at 114°C at all. x86 CPUs and GPUs usually have a recommended load temperature of ~85°C and start throttling heavily past ~100°C, with emergency shut-off at ~120°C I know Apple has always preferred running MacBooks hot and silent instead of cool and loud, but are they using a different solder or PCB for the M-series?

1-6 3y ago
Perhaps it’s a new way to reintroduce planned obsolescence. If consumers can detect throttling, then why not just make hardware run hotter so eventually solder points come off and bake PCBs to randomly introduce errors to get consumers to buy new computers?
- J_Shelby_J 3y ago
  Not just the solder but x86 CPU’s start to break down at that point. The overclocking groups have information about this but as I understand it the actual physical transistors on the die start to break down within a period of months leading to degraded performance, errors, and eventually non-operation. Granted, the chip may be designed for these temperatures, but I would assume that apple does what other manufacturers do and just assume the cases of users where high heat is not intermittent and causes premature failure will be rare enough to be inconsequential.
  - Dalewyn 3y ago
    Speaking Intel for a moment, since I don't know all the details for AMD and Apple, their CPUs are nowadays designed to boost until they reach 100C if they weren't already power or frequency limited by then. Intel also provides a 3 year warranty when the CPU is operated to spec, which includes the aforementioned. AMD does likewise, though their CPUs' thermal limit is 95C from what I know; I assume they have a similar warranty period to Intel. Apple also seems fit to operate their CPUs like that. Given all that, I'm going to presume that advances in fabbing tech mean CPUs today tolerate high temperatures better than ones from yesteryear.
- coldtea 3y ago
  Companies with "planned obsolescence" don't get highest customer satisfaction ratings and higher resale prices for old laptops
duffyjp 3y ago
Ryzen 7000 series all have a TjMax of 95C. I was quite surprised to observe this getting one recently. The motherboard's fan controller seemed unconcerned until the chip hit 100 and even then didn't throttle the CPU, it just cranked the hell out of the fan. I guess if they've determined it's not detrimental it's fine, but on a MacBook Air with no fan, I can't imagine you've left much performance on the table by heat-soaking those extra ~20 degrees. The way these chips heat up that's gotta be just a few more seconds at full speed.
- jorvi 3y ago
  Not sure if you’re aware of this (and if you’d be comfortable doing it, considering the risk), but delidding the 7000 Ryzen’s and applying Liquid Metal cooling paste drops average temperatures by ~20°C (!). Remember to apply to both the cooler and the CPU. This is because the Internal Heat Spreader for 7000 series was made primarily with cooler height compatibility in mind. It’s compatible with all previous (aftermarket) AMD coolers, but because the chips are lower height they had to make the IHS thicker which lowers the velocity of heat transfer.
  - duffyjp 3y ago
    Too risky for my taste! What I ended up doing is lowering the TDP in the BIOS from it's default 105 to 85 watts and now temps are great. I have a 7700X. Before doing that I tried lowering the max temp instead but I think 100+ watts is just too much for the cooler I have and I couldn't tolerate the noise. I'm sure I've lost some performance but I can't tell the difference.
perihelions 3y ago
How does temperature tolerance scale with shrinking transistor sizes?
GeekyBear 3y ago
From reviews I've seen, the M3 Air doesn't burn your lap as much as x86 laptops with active cooling, at least in sustained gaming workloads. > During the game, the surface temperatures of the laptop certainly got warmer, though never uncomfortably hot. Many gaming laptops I’ve reviewed get much hotter (and louder, of course) during games. Looking at you, Razer Blade. https://www.digitaltrends.com/computing/macbook-air-m3-gaming-performance/ https://www.digitaltrends.com/computing/macbook-air-m3-gamin...

by jorvi 3y ago

1-6 3y ago

Perhaps it’s a new way to reintroduce planned obsolescence. If consumers can detect throttling, then why not just make hardware run hotter so eventually solder points come off and bake PCBs to randomly introduce errors to get consumers to buy new computers?

J_Shelby_J 3y ago
Not just the solder but x86 CPU’s start to break down at that point. The overclocking groups have information about this but as I understand it the actual physical transistors on the die start to break down within a period of months leading to degraded performance, errors, and eventually non-operation. Granted, the chip may be designed for these temperatures, but I would assume that apple does what other manufacturers do and just assume the cases of users where high heat is not intermittent and causes premature failure will be rare enough to be inconsequential.
- Dalewyn 3y ago
  Speaking Intel for a moment, since I don't know all the details for AMD and Apple, their CPUs are nowadays designed to boost until they reach 100C if they weren't already power or frequency limited by then. Intel also provides a 3 year warranty when the CPU is operated to spec, which includes the aforementioned. AMD does likewise, though their CPUs' thermal limit is 95C from what I know; I assume they have a similar warranty period to Intel. Apple also seems fit to operate their CPUs like that. Given all that, I'm going to presume that advances in fabbing tech mean CPUs today tolerate high temperatures better than ones from yesteryear.
coldtea 3y ago
Companies with "planned obsolescence" don't get highest customer satisfaction ratings and higher resale prices for old laptops

duffyjp 3y ago

Ryzen 7000 series all have a TjMax of 95C. I was quite surprised to observe this getting one recently. The motherboard's fan controller seemed unconcerned until the chip hit 100 and even then didn't throttle the CPU, it just cranked the hell out of the fan. I guess if they've determined it's not detrimental it's fine, but on a MacBook Air with no fan, I can't imagine you've left much performance on the table by heat-soaking those extra ~20 degrees. The way these chips heat up that's gotta be just a few more seconds at full speed.

jorvi 3y ago
Not sure if you’re aware of this (and if you’d be comfortable doing it, considering the risk), but delidding the 7000 Ryzen’s and applying Liquid Metal cooling paste drops average temperatures by ~20°C (!). Remember to apply to both the cooler and the CPU. This is because the Internal Heat Spreader for 7000 series was made primarily with cooler height compatibility in mind. It’s compatible with all previous (aftermarket) AMD coolers, but because the chips are lower height they had to make the IHS thicker which lowers the velocity of heat transfer.
- duffyjp 3y ago
  Too risky for my taste! What I ended up doing is lowering the TDP in the BIOS from it's default 105 to 85 watts and now temps are great. I have a 7700X. Before doing that I tried lowering the max temp instead but I think 100+ watts is just too much for the cooler I have and I couldn't tolerate the noise. I'm sure I've lost some performance but I can't tell the difference.

perihelions 3y ago

How does temperature tolerance scale with shrinking transistor sizes?

GeekyBear 3y ago

From reviews I've seen, the M3 Air doesn't burn your lap as much as x86 laptops with active cooling, at least in sustained gaming workloads. > During the game, the surface temperatures of the laptop certainly got warmer, though never uncomfortably hot. Many gaming laptops I’ve reviewed get much hotter (and louder, of course) during games. Looking at you, Razer Blade. https://www.digitaltrends.com/computing/macbook-air-m3-gaming-performance/ https://www.digitaltrends.com/computing/macbook-air-m3-gamin...