4 ms·

I agree objectively there is nothing special about the tree or its clones/seedlings, or the other trees mentioned. However, I disagree it’s a silly sympathetic

I agree objectively there is nothing special about the tree or its clones/seedlings, or the other trees mentioned. However, I disagree it’s a silly sympathetic magic. It’s symbolism to help people deal with negative events and maintain a symbolic link. Realistically huge amounts of humanity are only symbolic links. Objectively who cares if someone is buried here, or this bit of metal is the crown of the royal family? But from a symbolic point of view they are important. If grafting/seedings weren’t available, they would have just planted another tree, but using the same DNA or the offspring has greater meaning and helps reinforce the narrative.

card_zero 3y ago
Yeah, although this stuff varies from culture to culture. Here's Douglas Adams visiting a 14th century temple in Kyoto: >I was told it hadn’t weathered well at all, and had in fact been burned to the ground twice in this century. >“So it isn’t the original building?” I had asked my Japanese guide. “But yes, of course it is,” he insisted, rather surprised at my question. >“But it’s been burned down?” >“Yes.” >“Twice.” >“Many times.” >“And rebuilt.” >“Of course. It is an important and historic building.” >“With completely new materials.” >“But of course. It was burned down.” >“So how can it be the same building?” >“It is always the same building.” >I had to admit to myself that this was in fact a perfectly rational point of view, it merely started from an unexpected premise. The idea of the building, the intention of it, its design, are all immutable and are the essence of the building. The intention of the original builders is what survives. The wood of which the design is constructed decays and is replaced when necessary. To be overly concerned with the original materials, which are merely sentimental souvenirs of the past, is to fail to see the living building itself. >I couldn’t feel entirely comfortable with this view, because it fought against my basic Western assumptions, but I did see the point.
- Engineering-MD 3y ago
  Thank you for sharing that was interesting. I’m surprised he says it is against western assumptions, but perhaps western assumptions has changed over time and adopted these views more.
- HeckFeck 3y ago
  > The idea of the building, the intention of it, its design, are all immutable and are the essence of the building. For that same reason, I'd prefer it if efforts could be made to fully restore Western ruins, such as the Parthenon, Constantine's Basilica or the Fourm of Trajan. Provided we have an accurate understanding of how the original appeared, and restoring it won't damage the other parts of the ruin or its surroundings. Surely it will do more for long term preservation. Our own ancients had the same idea - if the civilisation was flourishing, they'd rebuild ruins after earthquakes or war. (Also this is analogous to OOP - classes are like ideas, instances are their realisation)
  - card_zero 3y ago
    Large parts of the walls of Babylon were reconstructed by Saddam Hussein's Ba'athist government. I can never decide what I think about this. I think they also did a ziggurat and reconstructed it wrong, which is annoying. OTOH it's all nice to look at. It's also kind of misleading though because people don't realise it's reconstructions and possibly inaccurate. (And there are bricks here and there with messages on about how Saddam is the second coming of Nebuchadnezzar, but that's a detail.)
- visarga 3y ago
  This made me remember something I saw: ``` The Ise Jingu grand shrine in Mie Prefecture, Japan, is rebuilt every 20 years as part of a tradition that has been practiced for around 1,300 years, with some records indicating it could be up to 2,000 years old. This practice is known as Shikinen Sengū, which involves the complete dismantling and reconstruction of the shrine's wooden structures. The purpose of this tradition is not only to preserve the original architect's design against the eroding effects of time but also to maintain a strong sense of divine prestige and to pass building techniques from one generation to the next. The rebuilding process is a significant national event, symbolizing the eternal nature of sanctuaries and the importance of cultural continuity. It is a testament to the enduring value of traditional Japanese artisan skills and the cyclical renewal of sacred spaces. The entire reconstruction process takes approximately 17 years. The wood from the dismantled shrine buildings is recycled and used to construct new Torii gates at the shrine's entrance. Additionally, this wood is distributed for use in other shrines across Japan. ```

card_zero 3y ago

Yeah, although this stuff varies from culture to culture. Here's Douglas Adams visiting a 14th century temple in Kyoto: >I was told it hadn’t weathered well at all, and had in fact been burned to the ground twice in this century. >“So it isn’t the original building?” I had asked my Japanese guide. “But yes, of course it is,” he insisted, rather surprised at my question. >“But it’s been burned down?” >“Yes.” >“Twice.” >“Many times.” >“And rebuilt.” >“Of course. It is an important and historic building.” >“With completely new materials.” >“But of course. It was burned down.” >“So how can it be the same building?” >“It is always the same building.” >I had to admit to myself that this was in fact a perfectly rational point of view, it merely started from an unexpected premise. The idea of the building, the intention of it, its design, are all immutable and are the essence of the building. The intention of the original builders is what survives. The wood of which the design is constructed decays and is replaced when necessary. To be overly concerned with the original materials, which are merely sentimental souvenirs of the past, is to fail to see the living building itself. >I couldn’t feel entirely comfortable with this view, because it fought against my basic Western assumptions, but I did see the point.

Engineering-MD 3y ago
Thank you for sharing that was interesting. I’m surprised he says it is against western assumptions, but perhaps western assumptions has changed over time and adopted these views more.
HeckFeck 3y ago
> The idea of the building, the intention of it, its design, are all immutable and are the essence of the building. For that same reason, I'd prefer it if efforts could be made to fully restore Western ruins, such as the Parthenon, Constantine's Basilica or the Fourm of Trajan. Provided we have an accurate understanding of how the original appeared, and restoring it won't damage the other parts of the ruin or its surroundings. Surely it will do more for long term preservation. Our own ancients had the same idea - if the civilisation was flourishing, they'd rebuild ruins after earthquakes or war. (Also this is analogous to OOP - classes are like ideas, instances are their realisation)
- card_zero 3y ago
  Large parts of the walls of Babylon were reconstructed by Saddam Hussein's Ba'athist government. I can never decide what I think about this. I think they also did a ziggurat and reconstructed it wrong, which is annoying. OTOH it's all nice to look at. It's also kind of misleading though because people don't realise it's reconstructions and possibly inaccurate. (And there are bricks here and there with messages on about how Saddam is the second coming of Nebuchadnezzar, but that's a detail.)
visarga 3y ago
This made me remember something I saw: ``` The Ise Jingu grand shrine in Mie Prefecture, Japan, is rebuilt every 20 years as part of a tradition that has been practiced for around 1,300 years, with some records indicating it could be up to 2,000 years old. This practice is known as Shikinen Sengū, which involves the complete dismantling and reconstruction of the shrine's wooden structures. The purpose of this tradition is not only to preserve the original architect's design against the eroding effects of time but also to maintain a strong sense of divine prestige and to pass building techniques from one generation to the next. The rebuilding process is a significant national event, symbolizing the eternal nature of sanctuaries and the importance of cultural continuity. It is a testament to the enduring value of traditional Japanese artisan skills and the cyclical renewal of sacred spaces. The entire reconstruction process takes approximately 17 years. The wood from the dismantled shrine buildings is recycled and used to construct new Torii gates at the shrine's entrance. Additionally, this wood is distributed for use in other shrines across Japan. ```