12 ms·

Light Table reaches funding goal of $200k

193 points by kevinalexbrown 14y ago

ibdknox 14y ago
I've been a little quiet lately as I've been working on the next demo before the end of the Kickstarter. Based on the reactions I've gotten so far, I think you guys are in for a treat :)
- endlessvoid94 14y ago
  Can't wait. Keep up the good work and when the inevitable criticism comes, ignore the haters.
  - adgar 14y ago
    > when the inevitable criticism comes, ignore the haters What if the criticism is correct?
    - puredanger 14y ago
      He didn't say to ignore the criticism, just ignore the haters. ;)
- scoot 14y ago
  Looking forward to it. I didn't contribute at the initial rates, so was delighted when you took on board the comments here and rethought the pricing (if that's the right word).
- aiscott 14y ago
  I found the first demo inspiring, and I'm very much looking forward to where things will go.
- hkmurakami 14y ago
  What's most exciting about this whole thing, is the prospect of a new and potentially, hopefully, more flexible mode of sustenance for software developers world wide. The initial financial risk of the develop first, market later model seems to be greatly mitigated by the kickstarter approach. The market can be validated in real terms, with real money, before a developer has to take the plunge. Striking out on your own was (perhaps) never so easy. The new model may very well liberate many developers from the financial shackles that bind them to their day jobs; it may create more stories of the Marco Arment lineage: independent, flexible, balanced. With each new successful story like Light Table that comes along, the more convinced others will become that independent software development as a living may very well be possible for themselves as well.
  - zanny 14y ago
    I advise caution - successful funding does not yet mean successful product. The greatest threat to Kick-starter is the strong potential for projects to devolve into marketing drives for funding followed by people running off with the money, because they have no liability. One of the big budget endeavours will fail to come to fruition, and the entire internet will throw a gasket, and then we will see if the model is sustainable without having contractual obligations from the fundee.
    - jmathai 14y ago
      I can attest to that. My project met it's goal of $25k over a year ago when the largest project was still < $1M. It was great market validation. But I was surprised at how much market validation was still left. It didn't deter me though since I know building a business is hard regardless. I think $200k is still low enough that the market and product needs to be vetted. Pebble at $10M isn't such. Only they can screw it up themselves at this point.
- DLwdTxdU6smHQA 14y ago
  I'm excited that the goal is reached. One thought: I just saw your "We made it" blogpost via planet.clojure.in. May i suggest that you post it as an update on kickstarter? I think most people on kickstarter expect and enjoy when the project author "celebrates" the reached goal with them. In addition the news about the 2nd demo is remarkable. Btw any forecasts as to when the demo is going to go public?
  - ibdknox 14y ago
    Done. :) It'll go out before the kickstarter is done. I'm trying to finish it up in the next 10ish days.
Nate75Sanders 14y ago
There was some talk of Python support -- perhaps if the project reaches $300K or something along those lines. Is there definitive information on this? How will the fund-raising proceed, in a logistics/mechanics sense if this is true?
- andreyf 14y ago
  It's right in the description: "If we hit $300k, Python will be the third language to be supported out of the gate."
  - Nate75Sanders 14y ago
    I see it now, thanks. I guess my concern is that that's pretty far down the page and since the the fact that the $200K goal has been met is prominent, that message might not get across very well.
- mattdeboard 14y ago
  Python is the next language targeted for support at this point.
deleted 14y ago
[deleted]
stcredzero 14y ago
A suggestion - find volunteers to develop an automated test suite for responsiveness: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3964829 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3964829 If your tool is dependably correct and responsive, it will be a classic.
jf 14y ago
If anybody else is interested, here is a Web Numbr graph of the funding for Light Table over time: http://webnumbr.com/light-table-pledged http://webnumbr.com/light-table-pledged (Sadly, I didn't think of setting this up until it was really far along).
- tpowell 14y ago
  Webnumbr is damn cool.
- vmind 14y ago
  There's also Kicktraq, which has a longer history and a rough trend to total. http://www.kicktraq.com/projects/ibdknox/light-table/ http://www.kicktraq.com/projects/ibdknox/light-table/ (webnumbr looks really nice for watching random pages that don't have dedicated trackers, though)
  - deleted 14y ago
    [deleted]
- vito 14y ago
  What's with the dip(s)? Can people withdraw donations?
  - ibdknox 14y ago
    Yeah, no money is actually exchanged until the funding period closes.
- shalmanese 14y ago
  Man, what happened to Web Numbr? I remember thinking it was super cool when I first saw it but it doesn't look like it's changed at all.
vibrunazo 14y ago
I'm complete ignorant at programming languages. But I've seen this video a few times, and it still seem like each feature are things I already do every single day of my life as an Android developer. Live documentation, organizing your work around functions, watching values and expressions change on debug etc. These are all things I already do every day. So suppose lighttable adds support for Android development. How exactly would lighttable help me? What exactly can I do with it that I cannot do right now? Are you guys backing this up just because it looks visually different? Is it because the languages it supports just don't have good tools for like Java does? Or am I missing something obvious here?
- lnanek 14y ago
  You sound dead on to me. Java tooling is basically light years ahead of JavaScript, just because it's so much easier to write for a static language. Most people don't learn all the advanced features of Eclipse and other IDEs and debugging until they are stuck writing in them for years and years anyway. I know how to do things in hot keys in Eclipse that I don't even know how to do otherwise. Hot code replace and debugging and all the other stuff is similarly an advanced topic, even for many Java coders, so it is no surprise JavaScript programmers think it is something new.
  - tonyarkles 14y ago
    I've done development in Eclipse off and on for a few years. Some Python (PyDev extensions), some Java (Android, school assignments, a desktop app). I haven't tried it all that recently, but one of my biggest complaints has been performance. I end up turning off a significant number of the features that people talk about for Eclipse, simply because they make the environment run too slowly. It's not as if I'm using underpowered machines either...
- jakejake 14y ago
  I see here a possible cyclic thing happening with development environments. I've watched a lot of friends abandon IDEs in favor of more lean setup like textmate, or going the direction of emacs. Lighttable strikes me as a possible move back towards a full IDE environment. A lot of the things shown here are already available on Eclipse but it's presented here with a much cleaner visual design. The one thing Eclipse doesn't do is the "live" debugging with value substituting. I do think that would be very, very helpful. I could see that being implemented as an Eclipse plugin as well and it would be extremely useful in certain cases.
brcrth 14y ago
Since Light Table relies on CodeMirror (AFAIK), will some amount of money go to Marijn Haverbeke, along with other kinds of contributions to his project?
- ibdknox 14y ago
  We'll definitely be working something out with him. :)
munchor 14y ago
This IDE/text editor has some very good ideas, but I would never use it because it doesn't seem like it will be open source, free software, or even freeware. I wouldn't rely on a text editor that can't be improved and changed by the community. Besides, it seems to run inside the browser, and most browsers (even for a single tab) consume quite some RAM. Good luck, nonetheless!
- ABS 14y ago
  at least read the description of the product you are criticising...
- ibdknox 14y ago
  It will absolutely be open source. You just didn't read the FAQ ;)
- rabbidrabbit 14y ago
  Did you even look at the page? On the page it clearly states that it will be open source and will be extendable using javascript.
- asmala 14y ago
  On the mailing list Chris also mentioned that it "will likely use a browser somehow, but that might be abstracted away into a webview or some such thing so you wouldn't really know." [http://groups.google.com/group/light-table/browse_thread/thread/a4430ad1696b596e/fe977e9f81c29b3f http://groups.google.com/group/light-table/browse_thread/thr...]
gits1225 14y ago
Light Table is an interesting approach. I think, it would turn out to be something different & interesting if the project leverages that aspect of it. There are lots of editors which have already done a fine job of editing code. Unless a new interface to computers comes along, those are here to stay. What I am trying to say I guess is that, if the project separated the approach and editing aspects of coding, and then integrated the approach aspect with already existing editors (or an API/protocol of sorts, like what X server is to the various WM/DE); I believe it will turn into something really interesting.
- ibdknox 14y ago
  I'm inclined to agree. You cannot beat Vim and Emacs as editors... the key is to play a game they can't. I mean to show some examples of that with the next demo :)
  - julian37 14y ago
    Maybe I'm misreading your reply, but I think you might have misunderstood gits1225's comment. What (s)he was saying is that it would be great if your system would be open so that it could (eventually) be integrated into existing editors. Your reply, on the other hand, talks about "beating" these editors--to me that doesn't sound like you're interested in interoperability. For what it's worth, I wholeheartedly agree with gits1225. I think will be very hard for you and your team to even remotely approach the editing facilities offered by Emacs or Vim, seeing that these facilities have evolved over decades--especially in a web editor which is subject to a number of constraints. If your system could somehow (again, eventually) augment these editors--or, if you prefer, be augmented by them--rather than attempt to replace them, then in my mind this would be a win-win for everybody.
    - DannoHung 14y ago
      Yup yup yup! Respect the $EDITOR if possible please! Maybe do something like use Ctrl-B as a way to issue keyboard commands to Light Table or break out of an editor window.
modeless 14y ago
This is a really interesting method of funding a software project. It doesn't seem sustainable though. People might (maybe) be willing to fund a "Light Table 2.0" project but certainly nobody would care to fund an "ongoing maintenance and bugfixes for Light Table 1.0" project. Perhaps the Kickstarter model could be adapted to fund maintenance and bugfixes too. Popular open source projects always have the problem that their bug trackers get spammed with passionate complaints from well-meaning but frustrated users. I'm imagining a public bug tracker where users can pay to raise the priority of their favorite bugs. Not necessarily a "bug bounty" system, but just a way of raising money for the project overall while simultaneously giving frustrated users a productive outlet and reducing spam.
- Zirro 14y ago
  I may have missed something, but I believe the point is to get it developed with the help of Kickstarter-money in the first place and then sell through the normal channels to fund future development. As incentive for backers, they most likely get away with a cheaper price than the one we'll see later when the first version is out for sale.
  - modeless 14y ago
    It's not entirely clear how it can require a license and be open source at the same time. I suppose we'll see how open it really is when it's released. But selling licenses doesn't preclude also having a way to pay for bug fixing priority.
    - Zirro 14y ago
      Being open-source and selling doesn't have to exclude each other. You just have to trust the buyers moral, as in, if they're using it to create things they get paid for, they also pay for a license of your application. Also, since when has having a closed source ever prevented piracy anyway?
      - jules 14y ago
k_bx 14y ago
As a python guy, I don't want python support. That would be one more reason for lazy me to go there and learn/play with some Clojure :)
pessimizer 14y ago
Yesterday, as a last resort after a day and a half of unproductive frustration, I printed out a bunch of code from five or six different (too tightly coupled!) files that I was trying to refactor, spread them around my desk to get some sort of handle on it, and attacked them with a red pen. Needless to say, I'm in for $50.
natch 14y ago
I'm not a hater, but am a skeptic. Enough with the demos, how about making an MVP?
lninyo 14y ago
A fool and his money are soon parted. Enter Kickstarter.
vinayan3 14y ago
I heard no mention of how the keyboard input will work. I love using Emacs. The keyboard short cuts sometimes seem so odd but come in handy.
mpusr 14y ago
I notice very careful wording in relation to the open sourcing of it. This along with the fact that they're offering licenses as a funding reward. To what extent will this be open source?

193 points by kevinalexbrown 14y ago

I've been a little quiet lately as I've been working on the next demo before the end of the Kickstarter. Based on the reactions I've gotten so far, I think you guys are in for a treat :)

endlessvoid94 14y ago
Can't wait. Keep up the good work and when the inevitable criticism comes, ignore the haters.
- adgar 14y ago
  > when the inevitable criticism comes, ignore the haters What if the criticism is correct?
  - puredanger 14y ago
    He didn't say to ignore the criticism, just ignore the haters. ;)
scoot 14y ago
Looking forward to it. I didn't contribute at the initial rates, so was delighted when you took on board the comments here and rethought the pricing (if that's the right word).
aiscott 14y ago
I found the first demo inspiring, and I'm very much looking forward to where things will go.
hkmurakami 14y ago
What's most exciting about this whole thing, is the prospect of a new and potentially, hopefully, more flexible mode of sustenance for software developers world wide. The initial financial risk of the develop first, market later model seems to be greatly mitigated by the kickstarter approach. The market can be validated in real terms, with real money, before a developer has to take the plunge. Striking out on your own was (perhaps) never so easy. The new model may very well liberate many developers from the financial shackles that bind them to their day jobs; it may create more stories of the Marco Arment lineage: independent, flexible, balanced. With each new successful story like Light Table that comes along, the more convinced others will become that independent software development as a living may very well be possible for themselves as well.
- zanny 14y ago
  I advise caution - successful funding does not yet mean successful product. The greatest threat to Kick-starter is the strong potential for projects to devolve into marketing drives for funding followed by people running off with the money, because they have no liability. One of the big budget endeavours will fail to come to fruition, and the entire internet will throw a gasket, and then we will see if the model is sustainable without having contractual obligations from the fundee.
  - jmathai 14y ago
    I can attest to that. My project met it's goal of $25k over a year ago when the largest project was still < $1M. It was great market validation. But I was surprised at how much market validation was still left. It didn't deter me though since I know building a business is hard regardless. I think $200k is still low enough that the market and product needs to be vetted. Pebble at $10M isn't such. Only they can screw it up themselves at this point.
DLwdTxdU6smHQA 14y ago
I'm excited that the goal is reached. One thought: I just saw your "We made it" blogpost via planet.clojure.in. May i suggest that you post it as an update on kickstarter? I think most people on kickstarter expect and enjoy when the project author "celebrates" the reached goal with them. In addition the news about the 2nd demo is remarkable. Btw any forecasts as to when the demo is going to go public?
- ibdknox 14y ago
  Done. :) It'll go out before the kickstarter is done. I'm trying to finish it up in the next 10ish days.

Nate75Sanders 14y ago

There was some talk of Python support -- perhaps if the project reaches $300K or something along those lines. Is there definitive information on this? How will the fund-raising proceed, in a logistics/mechanics sense if this is true?

andreyf 14y ago
It's right in the description: "If we hit $300k, Python will be the third language to be supported out of the gate."
- Nate75Sanders 14y ago
  I see it now, thanks. I guess my concern is that that's pretty far down the page and since the the fact that the $200K goal has been met is prominent, that message might not get across very well.
mattdeboard 14y ago
Python is the next language targeted for support at this point.

deleted 14y ago

[deleted]

stcredzero 14y ago

A suggestion - find volunteers to develop an automated test suite for responsiveness: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3964829 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3964829 If your tool is dependably correct and responsive, it will be a classic.

jf 14y ago

If anybody else is interested, here is a Web Numbr graph of the funding for Light Table over time: http://webnumbr.com/light-table-pledged http://webnumbr.com/light-table-pledged (Sadly, I didn't think of setting this up until it was really far along).

tpowell 14y ago
Webnumbr is damn cool.
vmind 14y ago
There's also Kicktraq, which has a longer history and a rough trend to total. http://www.kicktraq.com/projects/ibdknox/light-table/ http://www.kicktraq.com/projects/ibdknox/light-table/ (webnumbr looks really nice for watching random pages that don't have dedicated trackers, though)
- deleted 14y ago
  [deleted]
vito 14y ago
What's with the dip(s)? Can people withdraw donations?
- ibdknox 14y ago
  Yeah, no money is actually exchanged until the funding period closes.
shalmanese 14y ago
Man, what happened to Web Numbr? I remember thinking it was super cool when I first saw it but it doesn't look like it's changed at all.

vibrunazo 14y ago

I'm complete ignorant at programming languages. But I've seen this video a few times, and it still seem like each feature are things I already do every single day of my life as an Android developer. Live documentation, organizing your work around functions, watching values and expressions change on debug etc. These are all things I already do every day. So suppose lighttable adds support for Android development. How exactly would lighttable help me? What exactly can I do with it that I cannot do right now? Are you guys backing this up just because it looks visually different? Is it because the languages it supports just don't have good tools for like Java does? Or am I missing something obvious here?

lnanek 14y ago
You sound dead on to me. Java tooling is basically light years ahead of JavaScript, just because it's so much easier to write for a static language. Most people don't learn all the advanced features of Eclipse and other IDEs and debugging until they are stuck writing in them for years and years anyway. I know how to do things in hot keys in Eclipse that I don't even know how to do otherwise. Hot code replace and debugging and all the other stuff is similarly an advanced topic, even for many Java coders, so it is no surprise JavaScript programmers think it is something new.
- tonyarkles 14y ago
  I've done development in Eclipse off and on for a few years. Some Python (PyDev extensions), some Java (Android, school assignments, a desktop app). I haven't tried it all that recently, but one of my biggest complaints has been performance. I end up turning off a significant number of the features that people talk about for Eclipse, simply because they make the environment run too slowly. It's not as if I'm using underpowered machines either...
jakejake 14y ago
I see here a possible cyclic thing happening with development environments. I've watched a lot of friends abandon IDEs in favor of more lean setup like textmate, or going the direction of emacs. Lighttable strikes me as a possible move back towards a full IDE environment. A lot of the things shown here are already available on Eclipse but it's presented here with a much cleaner visual design. The one thing Eclipse doesn't do is the "live" debugging with value substituting. I do think that would be very, very helpful. I could see that being implemented as an Eclipse plugin as well and it would be extremely useful in certain cases.

brcrth 14y ago

Since Light Table relies on CodeMirror (AFAIK), will some amount of money go to Marijn Haverbeke, along with other kinds of contributions to his project?

ibdknox 14y ago
We'll definitely be working something out with him. :)

munchor 14y ago

This IDE/text editor has some very good ideas, but I would never use it because it doesn't seem like it will be open source, free software, or even freeware. I wouldn't rely on a text editor that can't be improved and changed by the community. Besides, it seems to run inside the browser, and most browsers (even for a single tab) consume quite some RAM. Good luck, nonetheless!

ABS 14y ago
at least read the description of the product you are criticising...
ibdknox 14y ago
It will absolutely be open source. You just didn't read the FAQ ;)
rabbidrabbit 14y ago
Did you even look at the page? On the page it clearly states that it will be open source and will be extendable using javascript.
asmala 14y ago
On the mailing list Chris also mentioned that it "will likely use a browser somehow, but that might be abstracted away into a webview or some such thing so you wouldn't really know." [http://groups.google.com/group/light-table/browse_thread/thread/a4430ad1696b596e/fe977e9f81c29b3f http://groups.google.com/group/light-table/browse_thread/thr...]

gits1225 14y ago

Light Table is an interesting approach. I think, it would turn out to be something different & interesting if the project leverages that aspect of it. There are lots of editors which have already done a fine job of editing code. Unless a new interface to computers comes along, those are here to stay. What I am trying to say I guess is that, if the project separated the approach and editing aspects of coding, and then integrated the approach aspect with already existing editors (or an API/protocol of sorts, like what X server is to the various WM/DE); I believe it will turn into something really interesting.

ibdknox 14y ago
I'm inclined to agree. You cannot beat Vim and Emacs as editors... the key is to play a game they can't. I mean to show some examples of that with the next demo :)
- julian37 14y ago
  Maybe I'm misreading your reply, but I think you might have misunderstood gits1225's comment. What (s)he was saying is that it would be great if your system would be open so that it could (eventually) be integrated into existing editors. Your reply, on the other hand, talks about "beating" these editors--to me that doesn't sound like you're interested in interoperability. For what it's worth, I wholeheartedly agree with gits1225. I think will be very hard for you and your team to even remotely approach the editing facilities offered by Emacs or Vim, seeing that these facilities have evolved over decades--especially in a web editor which is subject to a number of constraints. If your system could somehow (again, eventually) augment these editors--or, if you prefer, be augmented by them--rather than attempt to replace them, then in my mind this would be a win-win for everybody.
  - DannoHung 14y ago
    Yup yup yup! Respect the $EDITOR if possible please! Maybe do something like use Ctrl-B as a way to issue keyboard commands to Light Table or break out of an editor window.

modeless 14y ago

This is a really interesting method of funding a software project. It doesn't seem sustainable though. People might (maybe) be willing to fund a "Light Table 2.0" project but certainly nobody would care to fund an "ongoing maintenance and bugfixes for Light Table 1.0" project. Perhaps the Kickstarter model could be adapted to fund maintenance and bugfixes too. Popular open source projects always have the problem that their bug trackers get spammed with passionate complaints from well-meaning but frustrated users. I'm imagining a public bug tracker where users can pay to raise the priority of their favorite bugs. Not necessarily a "bug bounty" system, but just a way of raising money for the project overall while simultaneously giving frustrated users a productive outlet and reducing spam.

Zirro 14y ago
I may have missed something, but I believe the point is to get it developed with the help of Kickstarter-money in the first place and then sell through the normal channels to fund future development. As incentive for backers, they most likely get away with a cheaper price than the one we'll see later when the first version is out for sale.
- modeless 14y ago
  It's not entirely clear how it can require a license and be open source at the same time. I suppose we'll see how open it really is when it's released. But selling licenses doesn't preclude also having a way to pay for bug fixing priority.
  - Zirro 14y ago
    Being open-source and selling doesn't have to exclude each other. You just have to trust the buyers moral, as in, if they're using it to create things they get paid for, they also pay for a license of your application. Also, since when has having a closed source ever prevented piracy anyway?
    - jules 14y ago

k_bx 14y ago

As a python guy, I don't want python support. That would be one more reason for lazy me to go there and learn/play with some Clojure :)

pessimizer 14y ago

Yesterday, as a last resort after a day and a half of unproductive frustration, I printed out a bunch of code from five or six different (too tightly coupled!) files that I was trying to refactor, spread them around my desk to get some sort of handle on it, and attacked them with a red pen. Needless to say, I'm in for $50.

natch 14y ago

I'm not a hater, but am a skeptic. Enough with the demos, how about making an MVP?

lninyo 14y ago

A fool and his money are soon parted. Enter Kickstarter.

vinayan3 14y ago

I heard no mention of how the keyboard input will work. I love using Emacs. The keyboard short cuts sometimes seem so odd but come in handy.

mpusr 14y ago

I notice very careful wording in relation to the open sourcing of it. This along with the fact that they're offering licenses as a funding reward. To what extent will this be open source?