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How does that change if you account for waste disposal in the costs? From what I gather the nuclear waste of fusion has a much shorter half-life. That should ma

by rocqua 3y ago

How does that change if you account for waste disposal in the costs? From what I gather the nuclear waste of fusion has a much shorter half-life. That should make storage and disposal much easier.

ben_w 3y ago
Very little, in practice: the waste disposal of fission reactors is one of the ways that the energy density of nuclear fuel actually matters — there's hardly any by volume, even if you add up the entire world's nuclear waste.
- ericd 3y ago
  Is there any reason for this to be less heavily regulated than fission plants/waste? Seems like that’s the major driver of cost? Are ridiculously massive containment vessels less necessary, since it’s very off by default/without power input, rather than potentially very on?
  - Filligree 3y ago
    Not much real reason for this to be less regulated. Still probably will be in practice, as fission is massively overregulated.
    - pfdietz 3y ago
      So, what do you propose as an alternative to nuclear regulation?
  - compumike 3y ago
    Yes. See https://adamswebsearch2.nrc.gov/webSearch2/main.jsp?AccessionNumber=ML23191A153 https://adamswebsearch2.nrc.gov/webSearch2/main.jsp?Accessio... "Rulemaking: Regulatory Framework for Fusion Energy Systems, NRC Public Meeting, July 12, 2023" and especially the graph on page 27, "Relative radiotoxicity" vs "Time after shutdown (years)" Also see https://www.nrc.gov/docs/ML2325/ML23258A145.pdf https://www.nrc.gov/docs/ML2325/ML23258A145.pdf "Fusion Systems Rulemaking: United States Nuclear Regulatory Commission Preliminary Proposed Rule Language". The NRC are already proposing to regulate fusion reactors much more like particle accelerators (which can produce medical radioisotopes, for example), and less like fission reactors.
    - ericd 3y ago
      Awesome, thanks!
- Projectiboga 3y ago
  Problem with fission waste is it's super long decay duration. It will basically still be seriously dangerous way beyond the lifespan of its containers. We need the equivalent of the Manhatten project to build next generation facilities to burn down the waste. The original bomb scientists really wanted to go with thorium as it has several safety features. One it needs to be pushed to criticality so it can't go runaway. Two its waste is much safer in its duration. And now cost is becoming a factor, as solar, wind, battery storage, geothermal, ocean thermal and conservation all pile on with cost efficiencies that make fission rapidly too costly. The fission waste will still need to be processed and then stored in ways that can be hoped to be safe for eons.
  - cubefox 3y ago
    Batteries are hardly getting cheaper anymore. See https://www.energy-storage.news/lithium-battery-pack-prices-go-up-for-first-time-since-bloombergnef-began-annual-survey/ https://www.energy-storage.news/lithium-battery-pack-prices-... The allegedly low cost of solar energy comes from ignoring battery cost. And the relatively high cost of fission comes largely from overregulation.
    - ben_w 3y ago
      Going up one year isn't something you should make a trend from, especially given the long term price declines. Here's another graph of the same thing, but updated with the actual rather than predicted value for one year after your link was published — and the price decline is back: https://www.statista.com/statistics/883118/global-lithium-ion-battery-pack-costs/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/883118/global-lithium-io... > The allegedly low cost of solar energy comes from ignoring battery cost. Can also solve the same issues with other storage options, hedge with other renewables that are also cheap, and electricity transport is a political issue rather than an economic or engineering problem. > And the relatively high cost of fission comes largely from overregulation. The low cost of fission is it being subsidised by the military value. The regulations exist because even though the mean cost of accidents per TWh is tiny, the upper bound of the damage when they do happen is sufficient to bankrupt superpowers.
    - 3y ago
pfdietz 3y ago
For all the pearl clutching about nuclear waste, dealing with it contributes very little to the cost of fission energy.

by rocqua 3y ago

How does that change if you account for waste disposal in the costs? From what I gather the nuclear waste of fusion has a much shorter half-life. That should make storage and disposal much easier.

ben_w 3y ago

Very little, in practice: the waste disposal of fission reactors is one of the ways that the energy density of nuclear fuel actually matters — there's hardly any by volume, even if you add up the entire world's nuclear waste.

ericd 3y ago
Is there any reason for this to be less heavily regulated than fission plants/waste? Seems like that’s the major driver of cost? Are ridiculously massive containment vessels less necessary, since it’s very off by default/without power input, rather than potentially very on?
- Filligree 3y ago
  Not much real reason for this to be less regulated. Still probably will be in practice, as fission is massively overregulated.
  - pfdietz 3y ago
    So, what do you propose as an alternative to nuclear regulation?
- compumike 3y ago
  Yes. See https://adamswebsearch2.nrc.gov/webSearch2/main.jsp?AccessionNumber=ML23191A153 https://adamswebsearch2.nrc.gov/webSearch2/main.jsp?Accessio... "Rulemaking: Regulatory Framework for Fusion Energy Systems, NRC Public Meeting, July 12, 2023" and especially the graph on page 27, "Relative radiotoxicity" vs "Time after shutdown (years)" Also see https://www.nrc.gov/docs/ML2325/ML23258A145.pdf https://www.nrc.gov/docs/ML2325/ML23258A145.pdf "Fusion Systems Rulemaking: United States Nuclear Regulatory Commission Preliminary Proposed Rule Language". The NRC are already proposing to regulate fusion reactors much more like particle accelerators (which can produce medical radioisotopes, for example), and less like fission reactors.
  - ericd 3y ago
    Awesome, thanks!
Projectiboga 3y ago
Problem with fission waste is it's super long decay duration. It will basically still be seriously dangerous way beyond the lifespan of its containers. We need the equivalent of the Manhatten project to build next generation facilities to burn down the waste. The original bomb scientists really wanted to go with thorium as it has several safety features. One it needs to be pushed to criticality so it can't go runaway. Two its waste is much safer in its duration. And now cost is becoming a factor, as solar, wind, battery storage, geothermal, ocean thermal and conservation all pile on with cost efficiencies that make fission rapidly too costly. The fission waste will still need to be processed and then stored in ways that can be hoped to be safe for eons.
- cubefox 3y ago
  Batteries are hardly getting cheaper anymore. See https://www.energy-storage.news/lithium-battery-pack-prices-go-up-for-first-time-since-bloombergnef-began-annual-survey/ https://www.energy-storage.news/lithium-battery-pack-prices-... The allegedly low cost of solar energy comes from ignoring battery cost. And the relatively high cost of fission comes largely from overregulation.
  - ben_w 3y ago
    Going up one year isn't something you should make a trend from, especially given the long term price declines. Here's another graph of the same thing, but updated with the actual rather than predicted value for one year after your link was published — and the price decline is back: https://www.statista.com/statistics/883118/global-lithium-ion-battery-pack-costs/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/883118/global-lithium-io... > The allegedly low cost of solar energy comes from ignoring battery cost. Can also solve the same issues with other storage options, hedge with other renewables that are also cheap, and electricity transport is a political issue rather than an economic or engineering problem. > And the relatively high cost of fission comes largely from overregulation. The low cost of fission is it being subsidised by the military value. The regulations exist because even though the mean cost of accidents per TWh is tiny, the upper bound of the damage when they do happen is sufficient to bankrupt superpowers.
  - 3y ago

pfdietz 3y ago

For all the pearl clutching about nuclear waste, dealing with it contributes very little to the cost of fission energy.