3 ms·

I really wish people involved in fusion research, and their university/corporate PR colleagues, had not spent the last forty years poisoning the fucking well.

I really wish people involved in fusion research, and their university/corporate PR colleagues, had not spent the last forty years poisoning the fucking well. fusion power is still so far away that it can't even figure in to our plans for reducing emissions to zero, and yet people still publish articles like this to muddy the waters and make it sound like it matters in the short term at all.

cubefox 3y ago
The real question is whether it can ever compete against fission in terms of cost. Currently it looks like fusion power plants will be substantially more expensive than fission power plants.
- Certhas 3y ago
  ... which is considerably more expensive than solar + hydrogen.
  - cubefox 3y ago
    Hydrogen for power storage is hardly used in practice, so it is probably quite expensive. Overall, solar energy seems very expensive when you factor in storage cost. Germany has very high energy prices, likely related to switching off fission power plants and heavily investing in intermittent energy sources like wind and solar.
    - Certhas 3y ago
      Likely related to? As in you pulled this idea from thin air and pop science reading? Electricity prices are mostly political. Fossil has been heavily subsidised throughout its lifetime, as has nuclear. French prices are lower because their energy producer has 70 billion in debts, backed by the French state, in order not to pass the true price of nuclear on to consumers. Hydrogen is not used yet, because we don't have enough renewables to have significant overproduction. For now storage is not needed. Truly this is a topic where everyone feels comfortable to throw in strong opinions without having even the slightest idea of how any of it works.
      - cubefox 3y ago
        Yes, electricity prices are political when you include disabling existing fission plants that are very cheap to operate (most of the cost comes from building them). Germany also has heavily subsidized renewable energy, but electricity prices are nonetheless so high that some major industry actually left the country.
        Certhas 3y ago
        Sorry but bullshit. Electricity prices are made up of taxes, subsidies and everything in between. There is no causal relationship between high share of renewables and high electricity prices in Germany. If you have any argument or evidence that supports the causal link, please share. If not please acknowledge that you are operating on gut feeling without a factual basis. Wholesale prices for electricity have been higher in France than in Germany, they have been much lower in Sweden, which has more renewables than Germany in the system already.
    - pfdietz 3y ago
      Hydrogen is hardly used in practice because we are still burning fossil fuels. Why make hydrogen for storage if you're allowed to burn methane?
- rocqua 3y ago
  How does that change if you account for waste disposal in the costs? From what I gather the nuclear waste of fusion has a much shorter half-life. That should make storage and disposal much easier.
  - ben_w 3y ago
    Very little, in practice: the waste disposal of fission reactors is one of the ways that the energy density of nuclear fuel actually matters — there's hardly any by volume, even if you add up the entire world's nuclear waste.
    - ericd 3y ago
      Is there any reason for this to be less heavily regulated than fission plants/waste? Seems like that’s the major driver of cost? Are ridiculously massive containment vessels less necessary, since it’s very off by default/without power input, rather than potentially very on?
      - Filligree 3y ago
        Not much real reason for this to be less regulated. Still probably will be in practice, as fission is massively overregulated.
        pfdietz 3y ago
        So, what do you propose as an alternative to nuclear regulation?
      - compumike 3y ago
        Yes. See https://adamswebsearch2.nrc.gov/webSearch2/main.jsp?AccessionNumber=ML23191A153 https://adamswebsearch2.nrc.gov/webSearch2/main.jsp?Accessio... "Rulemaking: Regulatory Framework for Fusion Energy Systems, NRC Public Meeting, July 12, 2023" and especially the graph on page 27, "Relative radiotoxicity" vs "Time after shutdown (years)" Also see https://www.nrc.gov/docs/ML2325/ML23258A145.pdf https://www.nrc.gov/docs/ML2325/ML23258A145.pdf "Fusion Systems Rulemaking: United States Nuclear Regulatory Commission Preliminary Proposed Rule Language". The NRC are already proposing to regulate fusion reactors much more like particle accelerators (which can produce medical radioisotopes, for example), and less like fission reactors.

cubefox 3y ago

The real question is whether it can ever compete against fission in terms of cost. Currently it looks like fusion power plants will be substantially more expensive than fission power plants.

Certhas 3y ago
... which is considerably more expensive than solar + hydrogen.
- cubefox 3y ago
  Hydrogen for power storage is hardly used in practice, so it is probably quite expensive. Overall, solar energy seems very expensive when you factor in storage cost. Germany has very high energy prices, likely related to switching off fission power plants and heavily investing in intermittent energy sources like wind and solar.
  - Certhas 3y ago
    Likely related to? As in you pulled this idea from thin air and pop science reading? Electricity prices are mostly political. Fossil has been heavily subsidised throughout its lifetime, as has nuclear. French prices are lower because their energy producer has 70 billion in debts, backed by the French state, in order not to pass the true price of nuclear on to consumers. Hydrogen is not used yet, because we don't have enough renewables to have significant overproduction. For now storage is not needed. Truly this is a topic where everyone feels comfortable to throw in strong opinions without having even the slightest idea of how any of it works.
    - cubefox 3y ago
      Yes, electricity prices are political when you include disabling existing fission plants that are very cheap to operate (most of the cost comes from building them). Germany also has heavily subsidized renewable energy, but electricity prices are nonetheless so high that some major industry actually left the country.
      - Certhas 3y ago
        Sorry but bullshit. Electricity prices are made up of taxes, subsidies and everything in between. There is no causal relationship between high share of renewables and high electricity prices in Germany. If you have any argument or evidence that supports the causal link, please share. If not please acknowledge that you are operating on gut feeling without a factual basis. Wholesale prices for electricity have been higher in France than in Germany, they have been much lower in Sweden, which has more renewables than Germany in the system already.
  - pfdietz 3y ago
    Hydrogen is hardly used in practice because we are still burning fossil fuels. Why make hydrogen for storage if you're allowed to burn methane?
rocqua 3y ago
How does that change if you account for waste disposal in the costs? From what I gather the nuclear waste of fusion has a much shorter half-life. That should make storage and disposal much easier.
- ben_w 3y ago
  Very little, in practice: the waste disposal of fission reactors is one of the ways that the energy density of nuclear fuel actually matters — there's hardly any by volume, even if you add up the entire world's nuclear waste.
  - ericd 3y ago
    Is there any reason for this to be less heavily regulated than fission plants/waste? Seems like that’s the major driver of cost? Are ridiculously massive containment vessels less necessary, since it’s very off by default/without power input, rather than potentially very on?
    - Filligree 3y ago
      Not much real reason for this to be less regulated. Still probably will be in practice, as fission is massively overregulated.
      - pfdietz 3y ago
        So, what do you propose as an alternative to nuclear regulation?
    - compumike 3y ago
      Yes. See https://adamswebsearch2.nrc.gov/webSearch2/main.jsp?AccessionNumber=ML23191A153 https://adamswebsearch2.nrc.gov/webSearch2/main.jsp?Accessio... "Rulemaking: Regulatory Framework for Fusion Energy Systems, NRC Public Meeting, July 12, 2023" and especially the graph on page 27, "Relative radiotoxicity" vs "Time after shutdown (years)" Also see https://www.nrc.gov/docs/ML2325/ML23258A145.pdf https://www.nrc.gov/docs/ML2325/ML23258A145.pdf "Fusion Systems Rulemaking: United States Nuclear Regulatory Commission Preliminary Proposed Rule Language". The NRC are already proposing to regulate fusion reactors much more like particle accelerators (which can produce medical radioisotopes, for example), and less like fission reactors.