3 ms·

this is going to sound rude but I think the author is just a typical frontend developer. frontend development used to be much simpler than the backend, in the

this is going to sound rude but I think the author is just a typical frontend developer. frontend development used to be much simpler than the backend, in the same way that a car tire is much simpler than the engine. useful, valuable, necessary, but no one gets bragging rights for being able to replace a tire (vs working on an engine). Over the last ~10-15 years the frontend has grown to be extremely complex. _overly complex_. Imagine a tire that can now play the radio. What the author is seeing (I hope) is an acknowledgement by our industry that the frontend need not be that complex to successfully do it's job. That feels bad for "frontend developers" who feel they can display much of their skill solely in the frontend. --- The very idea that anyone would call html and css a programming language kind of says it all. To use an analogy, I can program my VCR, that doesn't make my VCR a programming language. words can have different definitions but industries tend to have more specific meanings than the general meaning. These same developers like to rail against the idea of a fullstack developer. A fullstack developer is someone who can move between the frontend, backend, and data at will. They exist (I'm one of them). The frontend has gotten so complex people have started arguing fullstack can't exist because no one can be an expert in everything. As if they themselves are even an expert in the frontend (hint: you're not).

egberts1 3y ago
Instead, all we are getting are tires encrusted with seemingly-useless accessories (even the bells and whistles). When I hover over something in question, I expect popout tip box containing a full blown but very terse explanation of what that object is (in short, I just want the tire pressure monitor).
aurareturn 3y ago
Over the last ~10-15 years the frontend has grown to be extremely complex. _overly complex_. Imagine a tire that can now play the radio. Disagreed. Are we overcomplicating static blogs using fancy frameworks, CDNs, edge DBs, functions? Yes. At the same time, we literally have front-ends that are a whole application - VSCode, Slack, Discord, Google Docs, Google Sheets, Figma, ec. These apps load instantly from any browser, connects to the cloud, and they can be downloaded to work as a desktop app. These aren't just tires with wheels. They're the actual car and the server is just the gas.
- PH95VuimJjqBqy 3y ago
  This is a false dichotomy, it's not a binary between static and hugely complex.
- charleslmunger 3y ago
  I would not characterize any of these apps as loading "instantly".
cqqxo4zV46cp 3y ago
This is kind of funny because you’re fighting hubris with hubris, and a large part of what you’re saying is based on a huge misunderstanding of the industry’s dislike of the term “full stack developer”. I’ve never worked with a self-proclaimed “full stack” developer that does what they say they can. On my teams I always have an expectation, even if unwritten, that a developer will naturally end up specialising in front end or back end technologies. It’s always the case. And honestly in my experience it’s usually front end developers that have vastly miscalculated the complexities of the back end. The argument has never been that nobody can be a mediocre front end developer and a mediocre back and developer at the same time. The argument has always been against the allure of ‘full stack’ developers in the eyes of management and PMs. Suddenly all your team balance concerns go out the window. Communication overhead between front and back end developers goes out the window. Yada yada. The reality is that full stack developers only really work when the bar is low or the team/org is big enough that ‘Jack of all trades’ types can sustain themselves with a workload whilst leaving some other stuff up to specialists. My speciality is in back end development. I also know a bit of client-side JS and can put together a sorta-decent HTML/CSS interface. I’d never self-identify as “full stack” because I know what expectation that sets.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- PH95VuimJjqBqy 3y ago
  > a large part of what you’re saying is based on a huge misunderstanding of the industry’s dislike of the term “full stack developer”. You say this and then you repeat what I said just with more words. If you can call yourself a frontend developer despite there being developers who are better at the frontend than you, then a fullstack developer can call themselves that despite there being developers who are better than they are at frontend development. A DBA is going to be stronger with data than a fullstack developer, yet this does not imply that a fullstack developer cannot model data.

egberts1 3y ago

Instead, all we are getting are tires encrusted with seemingly-useless accessories (even the bells and whistles). When I hover over something in question, I expect popout tip box containing a full blown but very terse explanation of what that object is (in short, I just want the tire pressure monitor).

aurareturn 3y ago

Over the last ~10-15 years the frontend has grown to be extremely complex. _overly complex_. Imagine a tire that can now play the radio. Disagreed. Are we overcomplicating static blogs using fancy frameworks, CDNs, edge DBs, functions? Yes. At the same time, we literally have front-ends that are a whole application - VSCode, Slack, Discord, Google Docs, Google Sheets, Figma, ec. These apps load instantly from any browser, connects to the cloud, and they can be downloaded to work as a desktop app. These aren't just tires with wheels. They're the actual car and the server is just the gas.

PH95VuimJjqBqy 3y ago
This is a false dichotomy, it's not a binary between static and hugely complex.
charleslmunger 3y ago
I would not characterize any of these apps as loading "instantly".

cqqxo4zV46cp 3y ago

This is kind of funny because you’re fighting hubris with hubris, and a large part of what you’re saying is based on a huge misunderstanding of the industry’s dislike of the term “full stack developer”. I’ve never worked with a self-proclaimed “full stack” developer that does what they say they can. On my teams I always have an expectation, even if unwritten, that a developer will naturally end up specialising in front end or back end technologies. It’s always the case. And honestly in my experience it’s usually front end developers that have vastly miscalculated the complexities of the back end. The argument has never been that nobody can be a mediocre front end developer and a mediocre back and developer at the same time. The argument has always been against the allure of ‘full stack’ developers in the eyes of management and PMs. Suddenly all your team balance concerns go out the window. Communication overhead between front and back end developers goes out the window. Yada yada. The reality is that full stack developers only really work when the bar is low or the team/org is big enough that ‘Jack of all trades’ types can sustain themselves with a workload whilst leaving some other stuff up to specialists. My speciality is in back end development. I also know a bit of client-side JS and can put together a sorta-decent HTML/CSS interface. I’d never self-identify as “full stack” because I know what expectation that sets.

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
PH95VuimJjqBqy 3y ago
> a large part of what you’re saying is based on a huge misunderstanding of the industry’s dislike of the term “full stack developer”. You say this and then you repeat what I said just with more words. If you can call yourself a frontend developer despite there being developers who are better at the frontend than you, then a fullstack developer can call themselves that despite there being developers who are better than they are at frontend development. A DBA is going to be stronger with data than a fullstack developer, yet this does not imply that a fullstack developer cannot model data.