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And there are some people who are perfectly well socialized who are also sexist jerks. Okay. I maintain that in the tech community, it's horrible social skill

And there are some people who are perfectly well socialized who are also sexist jerks. Okay. I maintain that in the tech community, it's horrible social skills that's driving the majority of what appears to be gender bias, sexual harassment, etc. I also maintain that focusing on developing better social skills, empathy, etc. will do far, far more to solve the problem than simply pointing out over and over again the sex-related symptoms. I just don't buy the thesis that sexism is now suddenly extinct Who said anything of the sort? Please don't put words in my mouth, I don't like what you're attempting to project onto me. jumping into a discussion of sexism with "but that happens to me too!" I made no attempt whatsoever to derail anything. I was providing examples, from the opposite side of the gender fence, of how I saw social ineptitude causing apparent gender bias.

wpietri 14y ago
Your theory that apparent sexism in the tech community is actually only poor social skills requires that sexism in the tech community has died out. Because otherwise poor social skills would just make the tech community sexism more obvious than mainstream sexism. Which I think is exactly the case. Sexism is a millennia-deep, society-wide problem. I think it's absurd to say that the tech community is actually not sexist like the rest of society, but just happens to act the same way for a different reason. I'm sure you weren't intending to derail. Few do. But speaking as a fellow privileged person, you should be very suspicious when something comes out of your mouth that just happens to reduce or eliminate your responsibility for acknowledging your privilege in a situation. Like, for example, suggesting that sexism isn't the problem, but rather those poorly socialized nerds.
- georgieporgie 14y ago
  Your theory that apparent sexism in the tech community is actually only poor social skills I said "largely the expression of". requires that sexism in the tech community has died out It absolutely does not. Because otherwise poor social skills would just make the tech community sexism more obvious than mainstream sexism. And there you go. It's unlikely that misogyny and 'real' sexism exist among the tech community at levels significantly higher than other fields, yet it comes up all the time in the tech community. So, what's the explanation? Horrible socialization.
  - wpietri 14y ago
    You can't have it both ways. You started out by saying, "I think this is largely the expression of terrible, terrible social skills." If our level of sexism and sexist behavior is the same as the rest of society, then social skills are irrelevant. If lower social skills magnify existing sexism, then either our level of bad behavior should be much higher or our level of sexism would have to be lower. I think the reason it comes up here is that it's a field that attracts smart, idealistic people who are unlikely to be consciously sexist (but still have a lot of bad behaviors and unconscious attitudes). Another factor is that the low ratio of women makes it easier for sexist and misogynistic subcultures and workplaces to exist.
    - georgieporgie 14y ago
      You can't have it both ways. You aren't getting it. If our level of sexism and sexist behavior is the same as the rest of society, then social skills are irrelevant. What? That makes no sense. If lower social skills magnify existing sexism, then either our level of bad behavior should be much higher or our level of sexism would have to be lower. Depending on your definition, the level of "bad" behavior in the tech industry is much higher than other industries!
      - wpietri 14y ago
        I believe I do get your point; I just disagree with it. I think it's a convenient way to shift blame to a small subset of people rather than the much larger group that benefits from endemic sexism. I also disagree with your assertion that sexist behavior is particularly worse in our industry than any other, but if you have evidence on the point I'd love to see it.

wpietri 14y ago

Your theory that apparent sexism in the tech community is actually only poor social skills requires that sexism in the tech community has died out. Because otherwise poor social skills would just make the tech community sexism more obvious than mainstream sexism. Which I think is exactly the case. Sexism is a millennia-deep, society-wide problem. I think it's absurd to say that the tech community is actually not sexist like the rest of society, but just happens to act the same way for a different reason. I'm sure you weren't intending to derail. Few do. But speaking as a fellow privileged person, you should be very suspicious when something comes out of your mouth that just happens to reduce or eliminate your responsibility for acknowledging your privilege in a situation. Like, for example, suggesting that sexism isn't the problem, but rather those poorly socialized nerds.

georgieporgie 14y ago
Your theory that apparent sexism in the tech community is actually only poor social skills I said "largely the expression of". requires that sexism in the tech community has died out It absolutely does not. Because otherwise poor social skills would just make the tech community sexism more obvious than mainstream sexism. And there you go. It's unlikely that misogyny and 'real' sexism exist among the tech community at levels significantly higher than other fields, yet it comes up all the time in the tech community. So, what's the explanation? Horrible socialization.
- wpietri 14y ago
  You can't have it both ways. You started out by saying, "I think this is largely the expression of terrible, terrible social skills." If our level of sexism and sexist behavior is the same as the rest of society, then social skills are irrelevant. If lower social skills magnify existing sexism, then either our level of bad behavior should be much higher or our level of sexism would have to be lower. I think the reason it comes up here is that it's a field that attracts smart, idealistic people who are unlikely to be consciously sexist (but still have a lot of bad behaviors and unconscious attitudes). Another factor is that the low ratio of women makes it easier for sexist and misogynistic subcultures and workplaces to exist.
  - georgieporgie 14y ago
    You can't have it both ways. You aren't getting it. If our level of sexism and sexist behavior is the same as the rest of society, then social skills are irrelevant. What? That makes no sense. If lower social skills magnify existing sexism, then either our level of bad behavior should be much higher or our level of sexism would have to be lower. Depending on your definition, the level of "bad" behavior in the tech industry is much higher than other industries!
    - wpietri 14y ago
      I believe I do get your point; I just disagree with it. I think it's a convenient way to shift blame to a small subset of people rather than the much larger group that benefits from endemic sexism. I also disagree with your assertion that sexist behavior is particularly worse in our industry than any other, but if you have evidence on the point I'd love to see it.