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Lessons from torvalds/GitHub commits discussion

68 points by normalocity 14y ago

moonlighter 14y ago
To save folks some time, here's the summarized version of what commit-formatting Linus actually wants (for the kernel anyway): https://github.com/torvalds/linux/pull/17#issuecomment-5663733 https://github.com/torvalds/linux/pull/17#issuecomment-56637... https://github.com/torvalds/linux/pull/17#issuecomment-5663780 https://github.com/torvalds/linux/pull/17#issuecomment-56637...
diminish 14y ago
Nice summary, though the tone of the discussion is a bit tense.
- normalocity 14y ago
  Indeed, very intense; especially when Linus was throwing out statements like, "The truth shouldn't be sugarcoated." I had to believe there was something concrete behind it, however, and I was glad to see that there was.
- gft 14y ago
  Much of the other HN message board centers on the tone of the conversation. I think an important message that shouldn't be lost is: Emulate Linus' style in commit messages if you wish. Don't emulate the abrasiveness in his style of communicating (unless you have a track record as good as his).
kstenerud 14y ago
I still don't understand what the problem is. Is it that github doesn't enforce a commit message standard? Or is it that github doesn't allow you to follow a commit message standard such as what Linus uses? Does git itself enforce a standard, for that matter? What exactly is the deficiency in github?
- normalocity 14y ago
  The deficiency basically has to do with git being primarily a command-line tool, and as such, it's most powerful/native tools are built to be perfect for viewing plain text/in the command line (which are also mono-spaced). As such, when you view commit messages that are too long in the command line, the formatting gets screwed up as text is wrapped, and it's more difficult to read. In my interpretation, Linus believes this results in lost efficiency, which gets worse the more commit messages you have to read/handle on larger/more active projects. If you work within GitHub's UI only (and rarely look at your shortlog / git log on the command line), you'll never know about this because the web UI hides this fact. That seems to be what Linus is getting at - that the tool (git itself) was built to be awesome on *nix platforms, and GitHub effectively ignores this aspect of git. Finally, since the web UI doesn't enforce the proposed standard, you effectively create two groups of people: people who work through the web UI (or other UI-based tools), and people who work from the command line. Only the command-line people really suffer. However, if everyone (even people who work in the web UI) would conform to the standard, not only is everyone happy, but it encourages people who write commit messages to be more succinct, effective, and precise in their messages. That's pretty much what I took from it.
  - kstenerud 14y ago
    Right, that makes perfect sense. However, I still fail to understand Linus' outright refusal to even accept submissions made via a web interface rather than simply say "when you do a pull request, it must follow this format".
    - Jare 14y ago
      He explains it here: https://github.com/torvalds/linux/pull/17#issuecomment-5659933 https://github.com/torvalds/linux/pull/17#issuecomment-56599... In particular, "the quality of stuff I have seen from people who use the github web interfaces has been so low that it's not worth my time."
    - normalocity 14y ago
      Hm, hard to say. I don't know Linus personally. If I had to guess, I'd say he was one fire about it, and is obviously passionate about it. People are people, and they get exciting about stuff they care about.
jph 14y ago
It's more than formatting-- it's also identity verification, for example using email addresses and/or digital signatures.
- normalocity 14y ago
  You're right, I left that portion about, but it's also important.
zbowling 14y ago
It really sucks because this was not even a 1/3 of the points made in the discussion but the comments were getting deleted on an epic scale.
hcarvalhoalves 14y ago
The real lesson is: there are more important things to care about in life.
ktizo 14y ago
Crocker's rules might be useful in this case... http://www.sl4.org/crocker.html http://www.sl4.org/crocker.html

68 points by normalocity 14y ago

To save folks some time, here's the summarized version of what commit-formatting Linus actually wants (for the kernel anyway): https://github.com/torvalds/linux/pull/17#issuecomment-5663733 https://github.com/torvalds/linux/pull/17#issuecomment-56637... https://github.com/torvalds/linux/pull/17#issuecomment-5663780 https://github.com/torvalds/linux/pull/17#issuecomment-56637...

diminish 14y ago

Nice summary, though the tone of the discussion is a bit tense.

normalocity 14y ago
Indeed, very intense; especially when Linus was throwing out statements like, "The truth shouldn't be sugarcoated." I had to believe there was something concrete behind it, however, and I was glad to see that there was.
gft 14y ago
Much of the other HN message board centers on the tone of the conversation. I think an important message that shouldn't be lost is: Emulate Linus' style in commit messages if you wish. Don't emulate the abrasiveness in his style of communicating (unless you have a track record as good as his).

kstenerud 14y ago

I still don't understand what the problem is. Is it that github doesn't enforce a commit message standard? Or is it that github doesn't allow you to follow a commit message standard such as what Linus uses? Does git itself enforce a standard, for that matter? What exactly is the deficiency in github?

normalocity 14y ago
The deficiency basically has to do with git being primarily a command-line tool, and as such, it's most powerful/native tools are built to be perfect for viewing plain text/in the command line (which are also mono-spaced). As such, when you view commit messages that are too long in the command line, the formatting gets screwed up as text is wrapped, and it's more difficult to read. In my interpretation, Linus believes this results in lost efficiency, which gets worse the more commit messages you have to read/handle on larger/more active projects. If you work within GitHub's UI only (and rarely look at your shortlog / git log on the command line), you'll never know about this because the web UI hides this fact. That seems to be what Linus is getting at - that the tool (git itself) was built to be awesome on *nix platforms, and GitHub effectively ignores this aspect of git. Finally, since the web UI doesn't enforce the proposed standard, you effectively create two groups of people: people who work through the web UI (or other UI-based tools), and people who work from the command line. Only the command-line people really suffer. However, if everyone (even people who work in the web UI) would conform to the standard, not only is everyone happy, but it encourages people who write commit messages to be more succinct, effective, and precise in their messages. That's pretty much what I took from it.
- kstenerud 14y ago
  Right, that makes perfect sense. However, I still fail to understand Linus' outright refusal to even accept submissions made via a web interface rather than simply say "when you do a pull request, it must follow this format".
  - Jare 14y ago
    He explains it here: https://github.com/torvalds/linux/pull/17#issuecomment-5659933 https://github.com/torvalds/linux/pull/17#issuecomment-56599... In particular, "the quality of stuff I have seen from people who use the github web interfaces has been so low that it's not worth my time."
  - normalocity 14y ago
    Hm, hard to say. I don't know Linus personally. If I had to guess, I'd say he was one fire about it, and is obviously passionate about it. People are people, and they get exciting about stuff they care about.

jph 14y ago

It's more than formatting-- it's also identity verification, for example using email addresses and/or digital signatures.

normalocity 14y ago
You're right, I left that portion about, but it's also important.

zbowling 14y ago

It really sucks because this was not even a 1/3 of the points made in the discussion but the comments were getting deleted on an epic scale.

hcarvalhoalves 14y ago

The real lesson is: there are more important things to care about in life.

ktizo 14y ago

Crocker's rules might be useful in this case... http://www.sl4.org/crocker.html http://www.sl4.org/crocker.html