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Can we stop with all the "homelab in living room = divorce", "one less closet = unhappy wife" etc jokes? Reminds me of all the "so simple your <older female re

by ellieh 3y ago

Can we stop with all the "homelab in living room = divorce", "one less closet = unhappy wife" etc jokes? Reminds me of all the "so simple your <older female relative> could use it" comments on older tech product advertising. Just smells of yet more boys club humour that adds to the difficulty of including women in the hobby + industry. It's the small jokes that we're supposed to just quietly smile along with, as well as the big, that cause problems. Otherwise, nice post! I've had my homelab for years now and have been looking at expanding, definitely some things there I'll be looking at.

dijit 3y ago
I agree, actually, but "wife-acceptance-factor"[0] (or; "wife approved") is useful terminology; I would love if there was some colloquially acceptable gender neutral term for that. Some have suggested some truly cumbersome terminology to replace it which is unfortunate because you very quickly run into the same problem the vegans have: If your choices are too unpalatable then reasonable people (who don't care or share your values 100%) will avoid them. You need to make the choice easier. (hence why a lot of Vegan focus right now is on having enjoyable alternative meals). [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wife_acceptance_factor https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wife_acceptance_factor EDIT: I'm not going to argue this because if you're reading my comment you've already decided whether you agree or not and you will not be productive to talk to. I will answer some common suggestions and why they're not reasonably sufficient and you can argue amongst yourselves about it. I'm not a sociologist or psychologist but I am human so take it with that lens. * Partner as a replacement for "wife" is unfortunately more syllables making it just a smidge more annoying to speak, so people won't; but it's the closest to what is intended and mentally equivalent for most people. As a bonus it even encompasses the unmarried! Partner is also (commonly) said lovingly so it doesn't create distance in the mind of the speaker. * Spouse is an uncommon enough word that it doesn't come to mind quickly enough; it also unfortunately comes across as unfamiliar (IE: not from a place of warm affection) and clinical. A good replacement term should be something endearing because it's important to point out that this isn't a term of derision, the true meaning behind the phrase is that they love their partner and want them to be happy. It's just a boomer-humour type joke to hide behind "because I dont want a divorce" or "I fear my wife", which is part of the supposed humour -- so it needs to feel familial and affectionate.
- remram 3y ago
  Replace with "partner" or "spouse"? Why is that not good enough?
  - jpsouth 3y ago
    Happy spouse, happy house.
    - jijijijij 3y ago
      Cohappytant, coolhabitat.
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
- sophacles 3y ago
  Why not make the replacement term: "even reasonable people wouldn't object"?
  - dijit 3y ago
    You'd be implying that your partner is unreasonable if they did object, which is a bit cold. "Wife-Acceptance Factor" is also a spectrum, not a boolean. What is acceptable to one partner may be unacceptable to another, understanding what is more generally acceptable than another solution is useful, because it's likely that you understand where your own partner is at mentally and how much of the home needs to be tidy and nice.
- crtasm 3y ago
  Partner. Spouse. This seems easy. edit: "it's just a joke" - please re-read OP. 5 to 6 syllables is too many? Why aren't you saying WAF (PAF) if that's a concern :)
  - dijit 3y ago
    I'd probably say "would it be wife-approved?" or some other thing given the context of looking at a device that is hideous and not in-line with my girlfriends intended aesthetic of the home. But an additional syllable is indeed enough friction here, and if you think it's not then that's fine: but it is. Please understand me here, I'm not arguing or fighting with you: it's not something you can argue rationally, it's something subliminal that all humans will do and I'm trying to point it out. It's a form of lossy optimisation in our brains, we will always choose phrases that roll off the tongue better. This is the science of soundbites, and how they are weaponised in marketing for populist political agendas.
SanitaryThinkin 3y ago
I think, I don't know, that the modern day general understanding with that statement is "your partner finds this annoying." I don't think it has anything to do with genders per se but is an old adage with any hobby.The historical implications do point to a bias in understanding of 'roles' but I'm more comfortable with the approach that instead of rephrasing old adages we become comfortable with the idea that our understanding of the specific adage has changed. I think not changing the adage and instead focusing on the shift of understanding can also point to how much we grow as a society, and we can relish in our evolution of understanding as it pertains to historical beliefs.
remram 3y ago
I agree with you in principle, but in this case the author is describing their own situation. They do have a wife, I'm not sure they should be required to remove the gender of that actual person.
- crtasm 3y ago
  It's a "guide for beginners" offering advice to people in general, not just a post about their specific situation. >Here’s a quick list of Pros vs. Cons I’ve compiled to get us thinking about all the possible home lab locations. Choose wisely.
latentcall 3y ago
Yes agree with this. On the Homelab subreddit I’ve seen people suggest it as a bad thing if someone’s wife isn’t okay with a mess of wires accompanying a rack mount server and some other older PC’s located in a living room. They then proceed to question the posters “manliness” (in other words) for suggesting they plan on cleaning it up or moving it. Anyways to your original point I feel as if online people feel like marriage is a bunch of negative compromises that are always one sided or something. Homelabs are great but please don’t put loud servers and PC’s in the living room. :)
- simoncion 3y ago
  > ...I feel as if online people feel like marriage is a bunch of negative compromises that are always one sided or something. Bitching about the negative things in life with one's buddies is an activity that stretches back for hundreds of years, if not for as long as we've had language. It's a bonding activity, and an essential one. The big difference between -say- the 1980s and now is that one's buddies often congregate in clubhouses that post their conversations publicly, rather than just shooting the shit verbally. So, folks "these days" get to see how much convivial bitching between buddies there actually is out there, rather than being blissfully unaware of it. Yes, there are certainly folks who are dreadfully serious about their complaints and hate their SO with a burning passion or whatever... but those folks are certainly in the minority of complainers.
  - lolinder 3y ago
    It's not just that the posts are public, it's also that some unknown portion of your "buddies" on a place like Reddit or HN are actually female. Slightly misogynistic jokes with a group of male friends who know you and know your SO (and presumably know how your relationship with her actually is) land completely differently than the same jokes in an anonymous online forum.
- xandrius 3y ago
  Then, honey, I shall put the homelab in the bedroom!
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
throw5323446 3y ago
Yeah, the one size fits all is grating, for example my wife is not really into computers but she likes to see what I put around the house and just to ask questions and understand what I'm doing. She didn't have anyone to really ask questions growing up, and online wasn't so great so now we just talk and seeing a new box is just an occasion for discussion.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
durandal1 3y ago
I generally agree, I really do. However, I also feel that the entire article shares a very personal perspective of running a home lab - and that personal perspective is probably having a wife which sometimes gets annoyed by blinky stuff in plain sight. And when we remove that personal perspective, we also lose..personality which I desperately appreciate in a world where most things are hyper professional and polished to the point where it feels...soulless and bland. I would would have have no problem reading an article which makes jokes about the husband being driven to insanity by home server, I would have appreciated the diversity of perspective.
- jijijijij 3y ago
  Yes, of course, there is a chance that's "just" the experience. But these remarks tend to fall into the always same sexist, normative stereotypes - usually the only occurrence of "woman" in the story. In any case, the author does know he isn't exactly the first one to make that joke... In the end his experience may be a self-fulfilling prophecy. Communication does not happen in a vacuum, how something could be perceived usually is considered on some level - the author may not have seen it as a problem... which kinda is the problem. Honestly, I wouldn't want for anyone to act the way pro forma either, or think the author has done anything wrong, or even misogynistic, as others have suggested. It isn't something wrong, it is unfortunate. I think these jokes are sad, because any author would have an imaginary reader in mind, someone who might find the joke funny. And I don't think that imaginary reader is a woman, here - and it shows. So, for any woman reading these "boy's club" guides and write-ups, they will always feel othered, always have to overcome these tiny, but omnipresent obstacles in the way of their (new & fragile) interests. (Radiolab's 'Alone enough' episode comes to mind[1]) I just wish, people would introspect their motivations and intentions behind those remarks some. And especially when writing a guide, maybe consider if the take is worth discouraging even one girl's newly found interest in computers and blinky chaos, because her projected role as the opposition has just been reproduced sufficiently to stick. I wish authors would be aware of the problem implicitly alienating some readers by these reproductions, so writing welcoming texts to everyone would be intrinsic motivation. [1] https://radiolab.org/podcast/alone-enough https://radiolab.org/podcast/alone-enough
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]

by ellieh 3y ago

dijit 3y ago

I agree, actually, but "wife-acceptance-factor"[0] (or; "wife approved") is useful terminology; I would love if there was some colloquially acceptable gender neutral term for that. Some have suggested some truly cumbersome terminology to replace it which is unfortunate because you very quickly run into the same problem the vegans have: If your choices are too unpalatable then reasonable people (who don't care or share your values 100%) will avoid them. You need to make the choice easier. (hence why a lot of Vegan focus right now is on having enjoyable alternative meals). [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wife_acceptance_factor https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wife_acceptance_factor EDIT: I'm not going to argue this because if you're reading my comment you've already decided whether you agree or not and you will not be productive to talk to. I will answer some common suggestions and why they're not reasonably sufficient and you can argue amongst yourselves about it. I'm not a sociologist or psychologist but I am human so take it with that lens. * Partner as a replacement for "wife" is unfortunately more syllables making it just a smidge more annoying to speak, so people won't; but it's the closest to what is intended and mentally equivalent for most people. As a bonus it even encompasses the unmarried! Partner is also (commonly) said lovingly so it doesn't create distance in the mind of the speaker. * Spouse is an uncommon enough word that it doesn't come to mind quickly enough; it also unfortunately comes across as unfamiliar (IE: not from a place of warm affection) and clinical. A good replacement term should be something endearing because it's important to point out that this isn't a term of derision, the true meaning behind the phrase is that they love their partner and want them to be happy. It's just a boomer-humour type joke to hide behind "because I dont want a divorce" or "I fear my wife", which is part of the supposed humour -- so it needs to feel familial and affectionate.

remram 3y ago
Replace with "partner" or "spouse"? Why is that not good enough?
- jpsouth 3y ago
  Happy spouse, happy house.
  - jijijijij 3y ago
    Cohappytant, coolhabitat.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
sophacles 3y ago
Why not make the replacement term: "even reasonable people wouldn't object"?
- dijit 3y ago
  You'd be implying that your partner is unreasonable if they did object, which is a bit cold. "Wife-Acceptance Factor" is also a spectrum, not a boolean. What is acceptable to one partner may be unacceptable to another, understanding what is more generally acceptable than another solution is useful, because it's likely that you understand where your own partner is at mentally and how much of the home needs to be tidy and nice.
crtasm 3y ago
Partner. Spouse. This seems easy. edit: "it's just a joke" - please re-read OP. 5 to 6 syllables is too many? Why aren't you saying WAF (PAF) if that's a concern :)
- dijit 3y ago
  I'd probably say "would it be wife-approved?" or some other thing given the context of looking at a device that is hideous and not in-line with my girlfriends intended aesthetic of the home. But an additional syllable is indeed enough friction here, and if you think it's not then that's fine: but it is. Please understand me here, I'm not arguing or fighting with you: it's not something you can argue rationally, it's something subliminal that all humans will do and I'm trying to point it out. It's a form of lossy optimisation in our brains, we will always choose phrases that roll off the tongue better. This is the science of soundbites, and how they are weaponised in marketing for populist political agendas.

SanitaryThinkin 3y ago

I think, I don't know, that the modern day general understanding with that statement is "your partner finds this annoying." I don't think it has anything to do with genders per se but is an old adage with any hobby.The historical implications do point to a bias in understanding of 'roles' but I'm more comfortable with the approach that instead of rephrasing old adages we become comfortable with the idea that our understanding of the specific adage has changed. I think not changing the adage and instead focusing on the shift of understanding can also point to how much we grow as a society, and we can relish in our evolution of understanding as it pertains to historical beliefs.

remram 3y ago

I agree with you in principle, but in this case the author is describing their own situation. They do have a wife, I'm not sure they should be required to remove the gender of that actual person.

crtasm 3y ago
It's a "guide for beginners" offering advice to people in general, not just a post about their specific situation. >Here’s a quick list of Pros vs. Cons I’ve compiled to get us thinking about all the possible home lab locations. Choose wisely.

latentcall 3y ago

Yes agree with this. On the Homelab subreddit I’ve seen people suggest it as a bad thing if someone’s wife isn’t okay with a mess of wires accompanying a rack mount server and some other older PC’s located in a living room. They then proceed to question the posters “manliness” (in other words) for suggesting they plan on cleaning it up or moving it. Anyways to your original point I feel as if online people feel like marriage is a bunch of negative compromises that are always one sided or something. Homelabs are great but please don’t put loud servers and PC’s in the living room. :)

simoncion 3y ago
> ...I feel as if online people feel like marriage is a bunch of negative compromises that are always one sided or something. Bitching about the negative things in life with one's buddies is an activity that stretches back for hundreds of years, if not for as long as we've had language. It's a bonding activity, and an essential one. The big difference between -say- the 1980s and now is that one's buddies often congregate in clubhouses that post their conversations publicly, rather than just shooting the shit verbally. So, folks "these days" get to see how much convivial bitching between buddies there actually is out there, rather than being blissfully unaware of it. Yes, there are certainly folks who are dreadfully serious about their complaints and hate their SO with a burning passion or whatever... but those folks are certainly in the minority of complainers.
- lolinder 3y ago
  It's not just that the posts are public, it's also that some unknown portion of your "buddies" on a place like Reddit or HN are actually female. Slightly misogynistic jokes with a group of male friends who know you and know your SO (and presumably know how your relationship with her actually is) land completely differently than the same jokes in an anonymous online forum.
xandrius 3y ago
Then, honey, I shall put the homelab in the bedroom!

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

throw5323446 3y ago

Yeah, the one size fits all is grating, for example my wife is not really into computers but she likes to see what I put around the house and just to ask questions and understand what I'm doing. She didn't have anyone to really ask questions growing up, and online wasn't so great so now we just talk and seeing a new box is just an occasion for discussion.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

durandal1 3y ago

I generally agree, I really do. However, I also feel that the entire article shares a very personal perspective of running a home lab - and that personal perspective is probably having a wife which sometimes gets annoyed by blinky stuff in plain sight. And when we remove that personal perspective, we also lose..personality which I desperately appreciate in a world where most things are hyper professional and polished to the point where it feels...soulless and bland. I would would have have no problem reading an article which makes jokes about the husband being driven to insanity by home server, I would have appreciated the diversity of perspective.

jijijijij 3y ago
Yes, of course, there is a chance that's "just" the experience. But these remarks tend to fall into the always same sexist, normative stereotypes - usually the only occurrence of "woman" in the story. In any case, the author does know he isn't exactly the first one to make that joke... In the end his experience may be a self-fulfilling prophecy. Communication does not happen in a vacuum, how something could be perceived usually is considered on some level - the author may not have seen it as a problem... which kinda is the problem. Honestly, I wouldn't want for anyone to act the way pro forma either, or think the author has done anything wrong, or even misogynistic, as others have suggested. It isn't something wrong, it is unfortunate. I think these jokes are sad, because any author would have an imaginary reader in mind, someone who might find the joke funny. And I don't think that imaginary reader is a woman, here - and it shows. So, for any woman reading these "boy's club" guides and write-ups, they will always feel othered, always have to overcome these tiny, but omnipresent obstacles in the way of their (new & fragile) interests. (Radiolab's 'Alone enough' episode comes to mind[1]) I just wish, people would introspect their motivations and intentions behind those remarks some. And especially when writing a guide, maybe consider if the take is worth discouraging even one girl's newly found interest in computers and blinky chaos, because her projected role as the opposition has just been reproduced sufficiently to stick. I wish authors would be aware of the problem implicitly alienating some readers by these reproductions, so writing welcoming texts to everyone would be intrinsic motivation. [1] https://radiolab.org/podcast/alone-enough https://radiolab.org/podcast/alone-enough

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]