4 ms·

Jesus holy Apple pie! ASCII only in 2023 seems positivity antique. And this from a supposed tech frontrunner! Wth...

chtitux 3y ago
Limiting characters can also be a feature, so users can't use emojis in their password (this is so fun), to realize later they can't login, because they don't know how to input emojis from their desktop computer. Hopefully passwords will be gone soon (at least that's my hope).
- Sammi 3y ago
  There's only so much user hand holding you can do.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - docmars 3y ago
    With how ubiquitous Apple is, introducing a small limitation to prevent user error can make a huge difference in reducing support requests.
    - willcipriano 3y ago
      I'd give them the emoji keyboard on the login page. Make a web version they can use. The wider the possible keyspace the better.
    - amarant 3y ago
      We all know how great a company Apple is(sigh), but even they make mistakes. Stop defending stupidity just because it's Apple being stupid this time.
      - docmars 3y ago
        Don't get me wrong, it's a stupid limitation indeed -- but sometimes decisions like these are meant to stop users from doing stupider things :) I'm no fan of oversimplification, but Apple's audience is everyone, not just power users. In that case, I'd prefer having advanced options surfaced to me as "advanced" so I can do what I want, but leave the simple experiences for the simple folk.
- amarant 3y ago
  You might have half a point about emojis, but that's not what Apple is doing here. Is there a reason I as a Swede should be limited from using my full native alphabet in my passwords for example? As an example, you know how people sometimes suggest using a short sentence as a password? Here's a phrase in a local dialect, which means "and in the river there's an island" Å i åa e ä ö Notice how only 2 of those letters are available in ASCII. ASCII only is not a feature, and I honestly doubt anyone would try to argue that it is if this was about any company other than Apple. Try to look past the "who" and focus on the "what".
dredmorbius 3y ago
In what platforms is it not possible to input 7-bit ASCII characters 020 -- 073 (octal)? In what platforms is it not possible to input various Unicode or emoji characters, whether at all or reliably?
- necovek 3y ago
  Try setting up your Linux desktop/laptop with a Cyrillic language keyboard only, and then try typing in your ASCII login password.
  - dredmorbius 3y ago
    Aren't those keyboards usually readily switchable with a standard US keyboard layout (e.g., in Windows, MacOS, or Linux)? Do you have any direct experience with this? My point is that 7-bit ASCII underlies virtually all other keyboard / character encodings. Among the few cases where it doesn't (e.g., IBM mainframe EBCDIC, independent of ASCII), the principle encoding remains the Latin alphabet, and can readily be converted using standard system utilities.
    - necovek 3y ago
      They aren't readily switchable unless explicitly configured to be, and yes, I am speaking from direct experience. I get your point, I am just saying that it is not universally true, even if my example is a stretched one (Cyrillic keyboard users always configure Latin-based layouts too, but it's not a default, and it's easy to forget esp if you install from a fully live env configured with both). If it's still not clear, you can end up on a login screen with an ASCII password you can't type in, especially so without the GUI.
BobbyTables2 3y ago
And how does one define a SHA512 hash of a Unicode string? UTF-8? UTF-16? Others? But that’s not the worst thing… What about normalization? Skip or implement? Should “equivalent” code points cause differing hashes? Should one be able to use the same password from systems with differing locales/languages ? ASCII is insufficient, but Unicode is a royal mess!

Limiting characters can also be a feature, so users can't use emojis in their password (this is so fun), to realize later they can't login, because they don't know how to input emojis from their desktop computer. Hopefully passwords will be gone soon (at least that's my hope).

Sammi 3y ago
There's only so much user hand holding you can do.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- docmars 3y ago
  With how ubiquitous Apple is, introducing a small limitation to prevent user error can make a huge difference in reducing support requests.
  - willcipriano 3y ago
    I'd give them the emoji keyboard on the login page. Make a web version they can use. The wider the possible keyspace the better.
  - amarant 3y ago
    We all know how great a company Apple is(sigh), but even they make mistakes. Stop defending stupidity just because it's Apple being stupid this time.
    - docmars 3y ago
      Don't get me wrong, it's a stupid limitation indeed -- but sometimes decisions like these are meant to stop users from doing stupider things :) I'm no fan of oversimplification, but Apple's audience is everyone, not just power users. In that case, I'd prefer having advanced options surfaced to me as "advanced" so I can do what I want, but leave the simple experiences for the simple folk.
amarant 3y ago
You might have half a point about emojis, but that's not what Apple is doing here. Is there a reason I as a Swede should be limited from using my full native alphabet in my passwords for example? As an example, you know how people sometimes suggest using a short sentence as a password? Here's a phrase in a local dialect, which means "and in the river there's an island" Å i åa e ä ö Notice how only 2 of those letters are available in ASCII. ASCII only is not a feature, and I honestly doubt anyone would try to argue that it is if this was about any company other than Apple. Try to look past the "who" and focus on the "what".

dredmorbius 3y ago

In what platforms is it not possible to input 7-bit ASCII characters 020 -- 073 (octal)? In what platforms is it not possible to input various Unicode or emoji characters, whether at all or reliably?

necovek 3y ago
Try setting up your Linux desktop/laptop with a Cyrillic language keyboard only, and then try typing in your ASCII login password.
- dredmorbius 3y ago
  Aren't those keyboards usually readily switchable with a standard US keyboard layout (e.g., in Windows, MacOS, or Linux)? Do you have any direct experience with this? My point is that 7-bit ASCII underlies virtually all other keyboard / character encodings. Among the few cases where it doesn't (e.g., IBM mainframe EBCDIC, independent of ASCII), the principle encoding remains the Latin alphabet, and can readily be converted using standard system utilities.
  - necovek 3y ago
    They aren't readily switchable unless explicitly configured to be, and yes, I am speaking from direct experience. I get your point, I am just saying that it is not universally true, even if my example is a stretched one (Cyrillic keyboard users always configure Latin-based layouts too, but it's not a default, and it's easy to forget esp if you install from a fully live env configured with both). If it's still not clear, you can end up on a login screen with an ASCII password you can't type in, especially so without the GUI.

BobbyTables2 3y ago

And how does one define a SHA512 hash of a Unicode string? UTF-8? UTF-16? Others? But that’s not the worst thing… What about normalization? Skip or implement? Should “equivalent” code points cause differing hashes? Should one be able to use the same password from systems with differing locales/languages ? ASCII is insufficient, but Unicode is a royal mess!