4 ms·

Sounds like the eu-us trade war 2.0 (?).

by zx8080 3y ago

ginko 3y ago
Why do (mostly Americans) always make this out to be an EU vs. US thing? This is about getting large companies to stop abusing their market dominance. If anything people in the US should be glad the EU is doing this, since it might also benefit them in the long term.
- cryptonym 3y ago
  Agree. That rhetoric is mostly used to defend multi-bilions companies, even when that's against consumer and market interest.
- soco 3y ago
  Why do people criticize the idea of unionizing? Why do people defend any action of big companies? Why do dictators have followers? Why do people act against their own interest? There are entire sciences dedicated to answering this...
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- bryanrasmussen 3y ago
  Well relatively a lot of people on HN have worked at big tech companies, hope to work there in the future, or are currently working there - anyone matching one of those criteria might be more inclined to view it as an EU vs. U.S thing and arguing that it is the EU being mad because they can't make any of that U.S big tech magic happen in their area.
  - gpderetta 3y ago
    Wait, are you saying that all HN readers are temporarily embarrassed FAANG employees? ... that actually tracks pretty well.
    - bryanrasmussen 3y ago
      No not all, but if say 10% were that would still explain a lot.
- nottorp 3y ago
  There's a strong "large" fetish which I think is mostly an US cultural problem. It probably started with public companies not paying dividends and instead rewarding the shareholders by share price increases. This means they have to grow indefinitely. The logical outcome is having one all-encompassing monopoly that handles everything. Kinda like a state economy, but they don't get the irony.
- dns_snek 3y ago
  Part of the reason seems to be that a significant chunk of them have apparently forgotten that antitrust laws and enforcement are hard requirements for capitalism to actually work and deliver on any of its touted benefits. Unregulated free market capitalism that so many people seem to root for (knowingly or unknowingly) is just a degenerate version of the system that invariably results in cartels, price-fixing, rent seeking, thought policing, human exploitation and suffering, which is really just a different version of the "communist" boogeyman that they fear for the same reasons.
  - nickpp 3y ago
    Is that why in the free market capitalism the shelves were overflowing were people are spoiled for choice while in communist countries people were starving and being killed while trying to leave?
    - RandomLensman 3y ago
      Where in the world is it anywhere close to "free market capitalism" at scale? Most economies have a vast number of regulations on markets, products, capital, labor, ... Heck, limited liability corporations can only exist because laws make them possible.
- hx833001 3y ago
  Many Americans do not like foreign governments attempting to take control of American corporations by government fiat. For instance, the EU insisting they can steal money from Apple based on its global revenue, rather than EU revenue, is obscene.
  - seszett 3y ago
    > the EU insisting they can steal money from Apple based on its global revenue, rather than EU revenue, is obscene. To be clear, fining is not stealing except in some kind of liberal dystopian fantasy. And fining based on global revenue is necessary because it's all too easy otherwise to artificially shift revenue between various places to evade these kind of fines. The fine is limited by law to 10% of global revenue, and the EU market is more than 10% of Apple's revenue, so there's nothing particularly egregious here. Also, obviously Apple is not forced to do business in the EU if they don't like the rules.
    - rblatz 3y ago
      Profit and expenses can be shifted. I’m not aware of how they can shift revenue.
    - hx833001 3y ago
      You can attempt to justify this bureaucratic overreach to yourself if you wish, but an American company should not have its global revenue taxed by foreign governments. Future American administrations more interested in protecting American profits will ensure this is the case.
      - ginko 3y ago
        This is not a tax it's a fine. Many countries have fines relative to the income of the perpetrator. If you get caught speeding as a tourist in Norway do you expect to get away without having to pay anything since you don't have an income in Norway?
madsbuch 3y ago
This has nothing to do with the US. This has something to do with a small set of companies (less than 10) and how they act in the EU. Apple is free to do whatever they want that is legal in the US.
- raverbashing 3y ago
  > Apple is free to do whatever they want that is legal in the US. Yes but if Apple thinks nobody in the US will look at what's happening to Epic games from a competition point of view, they're wrong
CogitoCogito 3y ago
This applies equally to the US and EU companies operating in the EU.
rsynnott 3y ago
> Apple could soon be the subject of a federal antitrust lawsuit, according to a report from The New York Times. The publication says that the US Department of Justice (DOJ) is in the “late stages” of an investigation into Apple and its moves to keep customers locked into its ecosystem. Is it a US/US trade war, too? Not everything is a trade war; sometimes a naughty company is just a naughty company.
rvense 3y ago
This is not a trade war, it's about the power balance between consumers, corporations and governments.
- nonrandomstring 3y ago
  Can't give upvotes, but +1 for this insightful framing. The "Police and thieves in the street" problem as I call it, is that in most discussions we hear about the two big noisy players duking it out for control. In reality it's a three way struggle. By far the largest and most powerful group is often completely silent and omitted from the analysis. "Consumers" or "Voters" (although I would prefer the term "people") are subsumed into the other camps, each claiming to "represent" the people. Yet the silent, overwhelming majority are starting to reclaim a voice of their own. This is a worrying sign. Not because people shouldn't have a voice, but because it shows clearly that at best, governments and commercial markets are failing to represent the actual interests of people. Perhaps we've become complacent allowing plurality of power structures, unions, assemblies, societies etc to weaken?
  - bryanrasmussen 3y ago
    >"Consumers" or "Voters" (although I would prefer the term "people") are subsumed into the other camps, each claiming to "represent" the people. Citizens?
    - nonrandomstring 3y ago
      Yes "citizens" is good - hence "civic cybersecurity" as a placeholder for what I believe in [0]. But many countries do not officially recognise "citizenship". For example, in Britain (UK) we remain "subjects" although "citizen" is used in official documents. Maybe splitting hairs; but I don't want to assume that everyone in the world enjoys such a privileged status. [0] http://www.icicte.org/assets/icicte2019_5.4_farnell.pdf http://www.icicte.org/assets/icicte2019_5.4_farnell.pdf
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]

Sounds like the eu-us trade war 2.0 (?).

by zx8080 3y ago

Sounds like the eu-us trade war 2.0 (?).

Why do (mostly Americans) always make this out to be an EU vs. US thing? This is about getting large companies to stop abusing their market dominance. If anything people in the US should be glad the EU is doing this, since it might also benefit them in the long term.

cryptonym 3y ago
Agree. That rhetoric is mostly used to defend multi-bilions companies, even when that's against consumer and market interest.
soco 3y ago
Why do people criticize the idea of unionizing? Why do people defend any action of big companies? Why do dictators have followers? Why do people act against their own interest? There are entire sciences dedicated to answering this...
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
bryanrasmussen 3y ago
Well relatively a lot of people on HN have worked at big tech companies, hope to work there in the future, or are currently working there - anyone matching one of those criteria might be more inclined to view it as an EU vs. U.S thing and arguing that it is the EU being mad because they can't make any of that U.S big tech magic happen in their area.
- gpderetta 3y ago
  Wait, are you saying that all HN readers are temporarily embarrassed FAANG employees? ... that actually tracks pretty well.
  - bryanrasmussen 3y ago
    No not all, but if say 10% were that would still explain a lot.
nottorp 3y ago
There's a strong "large" fetish which I think is mostly an US cultural problem. It probably started with public companies not paying dividends and instead rewarding the shareholders by share price increases. This means they have to grow indefinitely. The logical outcome is having one all-encompassing monopoly that handles everything. Kinda like a state economy, but they don't get the irony.
dns_snek 3y ago
Part of the reason seems to be that a significant chunk of them have apparently forgotten that antitrust laws and enforcement are hard requirements for capitalism to actually work and deliver on any of its touted benefits. Unregulated free market capitalism that so many people seem to root for (knowingly or unknowingly) is just a degenerate version of the system that invariably results in cartels, price-fixing, rent seeking, thought policing, human exploitation and suffering, which is really just a different version of the "communist" boogeyman that they fear for the same reasons.
- nickpp 3y ago
  Is that why in the free market capitalism the shelves were overflowing were people are spoiled for choice while in communist countries people were starving and being killed while trying to leave?
  - RandomLensman 3y ago
    Where in the world is it anywhere close to "free market capitalism" at scale? Most economies have a vast number of regulations on markets, products, capital, labor, ... Heck, limited liability corporations can only exist because laws make them possible.
hx833001 3y ago
Many Americans do not like foreign governments attempting to take control of American corporations by government fiat. For instance, the EU insisting they can steal money from Apple based on its global revenue, rather than EU revenue, is obscene.
- seszett 3y ago
  > the EU insisting they can steal money from Apple based on its global revenue, rather than EU revenue, is obscene. To be clear, fining is not stealing except in some kind of liberal dystopian fantasy. And fining based on global revenue is necessary because it's all too easy otherwise to artificially shift revenue between various places to evade these kind of fines. The fine is limited by law to 10% of global revenue, and the EU market is more than 10% of Apple's revenue, so there's nothing particularly egregious here. Also, obviously Apple is not forced to do business in the EU if they don't like the rules.
  - rblatz 3y ago
    Profit and expenses can be shifted. I’m not aware of how they can shift revenue.
  - hx833001 3y ago
    You can attempt to justify this bureaucratic overreach to yourself if you wish, but an American company should not have its global revenue taxed by foreign governments. Future American administrations more interested in protecting American profits will ensure this is the case.
    - ginko 3y ago
      This is not a tax it's a fine. Many countries have fines relative to the income of the perpetrator. If you get caught speeding as a tourist in Norway do you expect to get away without having to pay anything since you don't have an income in Norway?

madsbuch 3y ago

This has nothing to do with the US. This has something to do with a small set of companies (less than 10) and how they act in the EU. Apple is free to do whatever they want that is legal in the US.

raverbashing 3y ago
> Apple is free to do whatever they want that is legal in the US. Yes but if Apple thinks nobody in the US will look at what's happening to Epic games from a competition point of view, they're wrong

CogitoCogito 3y ago

This applies equally to the US and EU companies operating in the EU.

rsynnott 3y ago

> Apple could soon be the subject of a federal antitrust lawsuit, according to a report from The New York Times. The publication says that the US Department of Justice (DOJ) is in the “late stages” of an investigation into Apple and its moves to keep customers locked into its ecosystem. Is it a US/US trade war, too? Not everything is a trade war; sometimes a naughty company is just a naughty company.

rvense 3y ago

This is not a trade war, it's about the power balance between consumers, corporations and governments.

nonrandomstring 3y ago
Can't give upvotes, but +1 for this insightful framing. The "Police and thieves in the street" problem as I call it, is that in most discussions we hear about the two big noisy players duking it out for control. In reality it's a three way struggle. By far the largest and most powerful group is often completely silent and omitted from the analysis. "Consumers" or "Voters" (although I would prefer the term "people") are subsumed into the other camps, each claiming to "represent" the people. Yet the silent, overwhelming majority are starting to reclaim a voice of their own. This is a worrying sign. Not because people shouldn't have a voice, but because it shows clearly that at best, governments and commercial markets are failing to represent the actual interests of people. Perhaps we've become complacent allowing plurality of power structures, unions, assemblies, societies etc to weaken?
- bryanrasmussen 3y ago
  >"Consumers" or "Voters" (although I would prefer the term "people") are subsumed into the other camps, each claiming to "represent" the people. Citizens?
  - nonrandomstring 3y ago
    Yes "citizens" is good - hence "civic cybersecurity" as a placeholder for what I believe in [0]. But many countries do not officially recognise "citizenship". For example, in Britain (UK) we remain "subjects" although "citizen" is used in official documents. Maybe splitting hairs; but I don't want to assume that everyone in the world enjoys such a privileged status. [0] http://www.icicte.org/assets/icicte2019_5.4_farnell.pdf http://www.icicte.org/assets/icicte2019_5.4_farnell.pdf

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]