4 ms·

It's good to know that TCC was pushed by the Chinese leaders so that their people could read but couldn't think and write independently -- those thousand charac

It's good to know that TCC was pushed by the Chinese leaders so that their people could read but couldn't think and write independently -- those thousand characters are not enough to write anything intellectual in Chinese. Nowadays, the program expects that 3000 characters are known in the third year of primary school. A modern dictionary has 7000-8000 characters. The Shuowen (edit: Kangxi Dictionary), the dictionary used by the elite in that period to make all literary writing very hard to read by using archaic characters contained 47000. TCC is very political and symbolic. See Lu Xun's essay in Qiejie ting zawen. Could expand more on it if someone's interested. Edit: change "government" to "leaders"

fmbb 3y ago
Which Chinese government when? These poems are supposedly 1000-1500 years old. I don’t think many governments (or kings, chieftains etc.) anywhere were very liberal back then.
- notresidenter 3y ago
  While there is a first TCC, the one from this page, the name was used and reused for new manuals, intellectuals sometimes argued that 1000 characters was all that the masses could possibly comprehend/need. At the end of the Qing dinasty, in particular, when some intellectual and political leaders were preoccupied by bringing "writing to the masses", intellectuals and great (war|) lords participated in the movements but with the sole intention of being understood by the masses without giving them the ability to express themselves. For a range, it's 1897-1911/1912.
yorwba 3y ago
That's a rather idiosyncratic interpretation. If you want to write something rebellious insulting the emperor, 皇帝卑俗無德, the thousand characters have got you covered. Same for the intellectual first sentence of Confucius' Analects 子曰: 學而時習之, 不亦說乎? And of course people would also study other texts that would introduce them to additional vocabulary. Your character count for the Shouwen dictionary is way off, it has less than 10000 distinct characters, and its primary purpose wasn't to provide obscure characters for use in new texts, but to provide easier-to-understand definitions for characters found in old texts. A tool to ease understanding, not hinder it. I'm not sure which of Lu Xun's essays in particular you're referring to, but in general his beef was with the continued use of literary Chinese, not that people weren't being taught enough characters to write in it.
- notresidenter 3y ago
  The essay I'm referring to was originally published in the Shenbao from the 24th of August to the 10th of September under the name "Huayu" in the rubric Ziyou Tan ("Free Speech"? More or less) which was then regrouped by Lu Xun in Qiejie ting zawen (see Quanji, VI, p. 86). Regarding the Shuowen, you are absolutely right, I was thinking of the Kangxi dictionary. Hope this clarifies it.
  - yorwba 3y ago
    I'm having difficulty finding an essay by Lu Xun under the name 話語. Maybe if you mentioned the year of publication, I could find a scan of the newspaper... I certainly don't have a physical copy of his collected works where I can just check page 86 and know what you're talking about. Wikisource has digitized versions of much (all?) of his writing, can you find it in there? https://zh.wikisource.org/wiki/Author:%E9%AD%AF%E8%BF%85#%E9%9B%9C%E6%96%87%E9%9B%86 https://zh.wikisource.org/wiki/Author:%E9%AD%AF%E8%BF%85#%E9... I did find another text where he brings up the thousand-character classic: https://zh.wikisource.org/wiki/%E4%BA%94%E7%8C%96%E6%9C%83 https://zh.wikisource.org/wiki/%E4%BA%94%E7%8C%96%E6%9C%83 記得那時聽人說, 讀《鑒略》比讀《千字文》、《百家姓》有用得多, 因為可以知道從古到今的大概。知道從古到今的大概, 那當然是很好的, 然而我一字也不懂。“粵自盤古”就是“粵自盤古”, 讀下去, 記住它, “粵自盤古”呵! “生於太荒”呵! ...... I remember hearing someone say at that time that reading "Jianlue" is much more useful than reading the "Thousand-Character Classic" or "Hundred Family Surnames" because you can get a general idea of everything from ancient times to the present. Getting a general idea of everything from ancient times to the present, of course that would be good, but I don’t understand a word of it. "Yue from Pangu" is just "Yue from Pangu", read on and remember it, "Yue from Pangu!" "Born in the wilderness!" ... (It appears that he misremembered 大荒 as 太荒: https://ctext.org/wiki.pl?if=gb&chapter=56603&remap=gb https://ctext.org/wiki.pl?if=gb&chapter=56603&remap=gb )
    - notresidenter 3y ago
      The year is 1934. I'm going to try and find it (this may take some time).
      - 3y ago

fmbb 3y ago

Which Chinese government when? These poems are supposedly 1000-1500 years old. I don’t think many governments (or kings, chieftains etc.) anywhere were very liberal back then.

notresidenter 3y ago
While there is a first TCC, the one from this page, the name was used and reused for new manuals, intellectuals sometimes argued that 1000 characters was all that the masses could possibly comprehend/need. At the end of the Qing dinasty, in particular, when some intellectual and political leaders were preoccupied by bringing "writing to the masses", intellectuals and great (war|) lords participated in the movements but with the sole intention of being understood by the masses without giving them the ability to express themselves. For a range, it's 1897-1911/1912.

yorwba 3y ago

That's a rather idiosyncratic interpretation. If you want to write something rebellious insulting the emperor, 皇帝卑俗無德, the thousand characters have got you covered. Same for the intellectual first sentence of Confucius' Analects 子曰: 學而時習之, 不亦說乎? And of course people would also study other texts that would introduce them to additional vocabulary. Your character count for the Shouwen dictionary is way off, it has less than 10000 distinct characters, and its primary purpose wasn't to provide obscure characters for use in new texts, but to provide easier-to-understand definitions for characters found in old texts. A tool to ease understanding, not hinder it. I'm not sure which of Lu Xun's essays in particular you're referring to, but in general his beef was with the continued use of literary Chinese, not that people weren't being taught enough characters to write in it.

notresidenter 3y ago
The essay I'm referring to was originally published in the Shenbao from the 24th of August to the 10th of September under the name "Huayu" in the rubric Ziyou Tan ("Free Speech"? More or less) which was then regrouped by Lu Xun in Qiejie ting zawen (see Quanji, VI, p. 86). Regarding the Shuowen, you are absolutely right, I was thinking of the Kangxi dictionary. Hope this clarifies it.
- yorwba 3y ago
  I'm having difficulty finding an essay by Lu Xun under the name 話語. Maybe if you mentioned the year of publication, I could find a scan of the newspaper... I certainly don't have a physical copy of his collected works where I can just check page 86 and know what you're talking about. Wikisource has digitized versions of much (all?) of his writing, can you find it in there? https://zh.wikisource.org/wiki/Author:%E9%AD%AF%E8%BF%85#%E9%9B%9C%E6%96%87%E9%9B%86 https://zh.wikisource.org/wiki/Author:%E9%AD%AF%E8%BF%85#%E9... I did find another text where he brings up the thousand-character classic: https://zh.wikisource.org/wiki/%E4%BA%94%E7%8C%96%E6%9C%83 https://zh.wikisource.org/wiki/%E4%BA%94%E7%8C%96%E6%9C%83 記得那時聽人說, 讀《鑒略》比讀《千字文》、《百家姓》有用得多, 因為可以知道從古到今的大概。知道從古到今的大概, 那當然是很好的, 然而我一字也不懂。“粵自盤古”就是“粵自盤古”, 讀下去, 記住它, “粵自盤古”呵! “生於太荒”呵! ...... I remember hearing someone say at that time that reading "Jianlue" is much more useful than reading the "Thousand-Character Classic" or "Hundred Family Surnames" because you can get a general idea of everything from ancient times to the present. Getting a general idea of everything from ancient times to the present, of course that would be good, but I don’t understand a word of it. "Yue from Pangu" is just "Yue from Pangu", read on and remember it, "Yue from Pangu!" "Born in the wilderness!" ... (It appears that he misremembered 大荒 as 太荒: https://ctext.org/wiki.pl?if=gb&chapter=56603&remap=gb https://ctext.org/wiki.pl?if=gb&chapter=56603&remap=gb )
  - notresidenter 3y ago
    The year is 1934. I'm going to try and find it (this may take some time).
    - 3y ago