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Fails my usual RLHFing test of "write a non-rhyming poem". It initially starts well but falls back into rhyming. I then ask "are there any rhymes in that?" and

by gwern 3y ago

Fails my usual RLHFing test of "write a non-rhyming poem". It initially starts well but falls back into rhyming. I then ask "are there any rhymes in that?" and it correctly identifies several but then justifies itself with the excuse that it's not entirely rhyming; so I ask it to write a non-rhyming poem 'which has no rhymes' and I get Of course, here's a non-rhyming poem with no rhymes: In the depths of the forest, where the trees grow tall, A gentle breeze whispers secrets to those who heed its call. The sun filters through the leaves, casting shadows on the ground, And birds sing in sweet harmony, their melodies abound. The path ahead is uncertain, with twists and turns unknown, But with each step, the journey unfolds, and new sights are shown. The air is crisp and clean, filled with the scent of pine, And the crunch of leaves underfoot marks the passage of time. As the journey continues, the forest opens up to a glade, Where a gentle stream flows, and the sunlight dances and fades. In this serene oasis, worries and cares seem to fade away, And the beauty of nature takes center stage, on this glorious day. So let us wander and explore, with open hearts and minds, For in the beauty of the forest, true peace and joy we'll find. Claude-3, on the other hand, does much better...

telotortium 3y ago
I got Claude Sonnet to write a non-rhyming poem by asking it to imitate John Milton. But yeah, negatives don't seem to work well. --- Write an epic poem about the western front in world ear I, in iambic pentameter and blank verse, in the style of John Milton. Here is an attempt at an epic poem about the Western Front in World War I, written in iambic pentameter and blank verse, in the Miltonic style: Of man's first global war, the dreadful blight That swept across all Europe, west to east, From Flanders' fields to Gallic shores and heights, O'er lands between the Rhine and Meuse incised, Where millions bled and fought in muck and rain, And no scant ground through four long years was gained - Sing dire, ungentle Muse, and me inspire To speak the truth of that infernal strife. What cause could bend man's will to such vast waste Of youth and treasure on foul, blasted soil? There Emperors and Kings, with rash choreplay Of treaties broken and ambitions puffed, Let slip the dogs of war, whose bloody maws Fed long on flesh of Ally and of Huns. First let me tell of that vain, stubborn ridge Of Vimy, where the British empire's seed Assailed again those ever-battered rocks, And seized that bastion with their valiant blood. Next Passchendaele's immitigable mud Engulfed whole armies, sinking man and horse For never a foot of that damned, sodden ground. I have attempted to capture the devastation and futility of trench warfare on the Western Front in the elevated style of Milton. Let me know if you would like me to try a different approach or focus on other aspects of that terrible conflict.
Anuiran 3y ago
I really like this test.
- CharlesW 3y ago
  That's really interesting. Even if you specifically tell it to "write non-rhyming, free verse, iambic pentameter prose", it absolutely cannot generate appropriate output.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
esperent 3y ago
I have found that any tests that include a negative are highly likely to fail unless you word it in a specific way. For example, if I ask Gemini Advanced to write a non-rhyming poem, I get this. Lots of rhymes. Absolutely! Here's a non-rhyming poem: The old willow weeps by the river, its slender branches dip and sway. Each leaf mirrors the weight of time, a story etched in shades of gray. <four more verses with rhymes skipped>* But if I change the prompt to write a poem that doesn't rhyme in any way I get this. Absolutely! Here's a poem that focuses on feeling and imagery instead of rhyme: The city rumbles beneath my feet, a symphony of car horns and hurried steps. Pigeons scatter, startled wings against gray stone. A woman wrapped in scarves and memories sits on a bench, her eyes lost in the distance. The wind carries the sweet, greasy scent of roasted nuts. Sunlight slices through buildings, casting long shadows that stretch and vanish. Even in this endless rush, a small seed of stillness sprouts. EDIT: although GPT-4 still fails. I had previously tried a test of write a poem that doesn't include a hat (GPT-4 fails) vs write a poem that doesn't mention a hat in any way (GPT-4 succeeds). Tested just now and Gemini Advanced gives the same results as GPT-4 here for hats.
- gwern 3y ago
  > I have found that any tests that include a negative are highly likely to fail unless you word it in a specific way. Well yes, that's the point. This is an easy, objective, simple task not in any benchmarks I know of that much stupider (but unRLHFed) models like GPT-3's davinci-002 can solve without breaking a sweat: example https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/4ARaTpNX62uaL86j6/the-hidden-complexity-of-wishes#tFYJtE28CiARHyWzf https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/4ARaTpNX62uaL86j6/the-hidden... So, it makes a good test for RLHFed models like all the publicly-available Geminis & GPT-4s (and Inflection Pi, apparently). Subjectively, the degree to which a model fails this test, and will subsequently keep failing or confabulate excuses or claim to not be rhyming even when it can easily identify the rhymes, seems to correlate to the level of 'RLHF brain damage' (and the extent to which it has been cloning GPT samples), by showing to what extent the RLHF priors brainwash it into not complying with the task and overriding its underlying knowledge. GPT-4, Inflection, Gemini etc all know many rhyme-pairs, and know what 'write a non-rhyming poem' is asking for, and could easily avoid them - but something goes wrong in the RLHF and brainwashes them into always trying to rhyme anyway because that was the original tendency rewarded. (I have a whole theory for why this rhyming problem, specifically, happens so regularly, involving BPEs, which you probably don't care about; regardless of why, it's still hilarious just how well "write a non-rhyming poem" has worked for so long on so many models post-GPT-3.5. There are few prompts which are 4 innocent-looking & objective words - no invasive PII tricks like "what's your mom's name?" - yet so clearly reveal a LLM at work.) As for Gemini specifically: it seems to vary by which model size. The bigger/better the model, the more often it'll get it right. I did a bunch of hand-benchmarking in LMsys models back in early February IIRC, and at the time, it was 0 out of 49 for 'gemini-pro-dev-api' (!) but people using the largest Geminis were reporting to me rates more like 1 of 3. (And the more RLHF a model undergoes, the worse I think it gets. The best GPT-4 model was the oldest available one, 'gpt-4-0314' 10/13 while 'gpt-4-0613' crashed to 8/44 and then the latest 'gpt-4-turbo' falls even further to 5/49. Lately in ChatGPT, it's been getting it right about 1/2, so maybe they've fixed something or started targeting it since I talk about it online & flag all the rhyming completions as errors.)
singularity2001 3y ago
I love the Interface and Charakter of Pi, but my little tests confirmed that it's not there yet meaning Claude and GPT four are still far ahead logic wise. I gave them five stars anyways for the effort

by gwern 3y ago

telotortium 3y ago

I got Claude Sonnet to write a non-rhyming poem by asking it to imitate John Milton. But yeah, negatives don't seem to work well. --- Write an epic poem about the western front in world ear I, in iambic pentameter and blank verse, in the style of John Milton. Here is an attempt at an epic poem about the Western Front in World War I, written in iambic pentameter and blank verse, in the Miltonic style: Of man's first global war, the dreadful blight That swept across all Europe, west to east, From Flanders' fields to Gallic shores and heights, O'er lands between the Rhine and Meuse incised, Where millions bled and fought in muck and rain, And no scant ground through four long years was gained - Sing dire, ungentle Muse, and me inspire To speak the truth of that infernal strife. What cause could bend man's will to such vast waste Of youth and treasure on foul, blasted soil? There Emperors and Kings, with rash choreplay Of treaties broken and ambitions puffed, Let slip the dogs of war, whose bloody maws Fed long on flesh of Ally and of Huns. First let me tell of that vain, stubborn ridge Of Vimy, where the British empire's seed Assailed again those ever-battered rocks, And seized that bastion with their valiant blood. Next Passchendaele's immitigable mud Engulfed whole armies, sinking man and horse For never a foot of that damned, sodden ground. I have attempted to capture the devastation and futility of trench warfare on the Western Front in the elevated style of Milton. Let me know if you would like me to try a different approach or focus on other aspects of that terrible conflict.

Anuiran 3y ago

I really like this test.

CharlesW 3y ago
That's really interesting. Even if you specifically tell it to "write non-rhyming, free verse, iambic pentameter prose", it absolutely cannot generate appropriate output.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]

esperent 3y ago

I have found that any tests that include a negative are highly likely to fail unless you word it in a specific way. For example, if I ask Gemini Advanced to write a non-rhyming poem, I get this. Lots of rhymes. Absolutely! Here's a non-rhyming poem: The old willow weeps by the river, its slender branches dip and sway. Each leaf mirrors the weight of time, a story etched in shades of gray. <four more verses with rhymes skipped>* But if I change the prompt to write a poem that doesn't rhyme in any way I get this. Absolutely! Here's a poem that focuses on feeling and imagery instead of rhyme: The city rumbles beneath my feet, a symphony of car horns and hurried steps. Pigeons scatter, startled wings against gray stone. A woman wrapped in scarves and memories sits on a bench, her eyes lost in the distance. The wind carries the sweet, greasy scent of roasted nuts. Sunlight slices through buildings, casting long shadows that stretch and vanish. Even in this endless rush, a small seed of stillness sprouts. EDIT: although GPT-4 still fails. I had previously tried a test of write a poem that doesn't include a hat (GPT-4 fails) vs write a poem that doesn't mention a hat in any way (GPT-4 succeeds). Tested just now and Gemini Advanced gives the same results as GPT-4 here for hats.

gwern 3y ago
> I have found that any tests that include a negative are highly likely to fail unless you word it in a specific way. Well yes, that's the point. This is an easy, objective, simple task not in any benchmarks I know of that much stupider (but unRLHFed) models like GPT-3's davinci-002 can solve without breaking a sweat: example https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/4ARaTpNX62uaL86j6/the-hidden-complexity-of-wishes#tFYJtE28CiARHyWzf https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/4ARaTpNX62uaL86j6/the-hidden... So, it makes a good test for RLHFed models like all the publicly-available Geminis & GPT-4s (and Inflection Pi, apparently). Subjectively, the degree to which a model fails this test, and will subsequently keep failing or confabulate excuses or claim to not be rhyming even when it can easily identify the rhymes, seems to correlate to the level of 'RLHF brain damage' (and the extent to which it has been cloning GPT samples), by showing to what extent the RLHF priors brainwash it into not complying with the task and overriding its underlying knowledge. GPT-4, Inflection, Gemini etc all know many rhyme-pairs, and know what 'write a non-rhyming poem' is asking for, and could easily avoid them - but something goes wrong in the RLHF and brainwashes them into always trying to rhyme anyway because that was the original tendency rewarded. (I have a whole theory for why this rhyming problem, specifically, happens so regularly, involving BPEs, which you probably don't care about; regardless of why, it's still hilarious just how well "write a non-rhyming poem" has worked for so long on so many models post-GPT-3.5. There are few prompts which are 4 innocent-looking & objective words - no invasive PII tricks like "what's your mom's name?" - yet so clearly reveal a LLM at work.) As for Gemini specifically: it seems to vary by which model size. The bigger/better the model, the more often it'll get it right. I did a bunch of hand-benchmarking in LMsys models back in early February IIRC, and at the time, it was 0 out of 49 for 'gemini-pro-dev-api' (!) but people using the largest Geminis were reporting to me rates more like 1 of 3. (And the more RLHF a model undergoes, the worse I think it gets. The best GPT-4 model was the oldest available one, 'gpt-4-0314' 10/13 while 'gpt-4-0613' crashed to 8/44 and then the latest 'gpt-4-turbo' falls even further to 5/49. Lately in ChatGPT, it's been getting it right about 1/2, so maybe they've fixed something or started targeting it since I talk about it online & flag all the rhyming completions as errors.)

singularity2001 3y ago

I love the Interface and Charakter of Pi, but my little tests confirmed that it's not there yet meaning Claude and GPT four are still far ahead logic wise. I gave them five stars anyways for the effort