3 ms·

Being born someone does not force you to have an undying allegiance to that place, what are you on about?

tristor 3y ago
I don't think your response is in good faith, since you are responding to a comment where I explicitly say that I have made no reference to where someone is born, only to their allegiance. Do you not understand what the term "national" means? A significant number of US nationals were not born here, being born here is not a prerequisite to be a national. While the same is largely not true for China, there are many people born in China who are no longer Chinese nationals because they have renounced their citizenship as part of immigrating and naturalizing elsewhere. The statement I made is not about ethnicity or birthplace, it's about allegiance. /Every/ citizen of China is required by Chinese law to participate in espionage either directly or indirectly as requested, and they are requested, the evidence is insurmountable.
- hughesjj 3y ago
  > there are many people born in China who are no longer Chinese nationals because they have renounced their citizenship as part of immigrating and naturalizing elsewhere. Do tell, how does one go about naturalizing elsewhere? In the country I live in, it typically takes over ten years and requires establishing a support system in said country first (employment, social connection, etc). If you ban everyone from a country from immigrating (which is exactly what you're proposing for all birthright citizenship countries), you prevent naturalization from even being a possibility. You claiming I'm arguing in bad faith while ignoring the Titanic sinking your argument did give me a chuckle though, I grant you that.
  - tristor 3y ago
    I stopped replying in this thread earlier due to dang’s comment. I am not going to respond fully, as your response is clearly /not/ in good faith. > If you ban everyone from a country from immigrating (which is exactly what you're proposing for all birthright citizenship countries) Nowhere do I say anything of the sort. I am pro—immigration generally. Stop trying to put words in my mouth and then battling the straw man.
- ClumsyPilot 3y ago
  > I don't think your response is in good faith I don't think yours's is, you pretend to draw a difference where no practical distinction exists. For 95% of people worldwide, birthplace IS nationality - you get 1 by birth, and only have 1. You can't renounce it, that would make you illegal alien. If you put up a corporate email "specifically Chinese citizens will get no promotions this year" you will have immediate lawsuits on your hands, it is discriminatory. Instead you should own up to to the fact that your position is illiberal, and provide serious evidence that the threat is so great, that liberal principles must be abandoned. Of course that is much tougher and less palatable argument to make.
renewiltord 3y ago
It's amusing that every alternative comment is the guy expressly saying he's talking about nationality held and who they hold allegiance to, and every response is a misunderstanding. This is normal stuff. You can even lose your US dual citizenship if you serve in another nation's armed forces. I actually pasted the sequence into ChatGPT and it seems to comprehend him easier than people responding to him. It is always interesting when the Turing test is failed because the bot is too smart and capable of comprehension.
- hughesjj 3y ago
  If your metric for comprehension is 'agree with op's viewpoint' then it shouldn't be surprising that chatgpt 'comprehends' op better. Y'all are splitting hairs trying to call it 'nationality' vs birth. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_nationality_law https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_nationality_law Like many countries, China has a policy of jus soli. Most countries will not allow you to renounce citizenship should it leave you stateless. So, until you get another citizenship, which is typically a multi year to decades long process, you don't really have a say as to what your 'nationality' is. It's not like an infant can reasonably consent to be given citizenship, or that they would even have the option if they could. The OPs metric for allegiance is nationality, which itself is determined by where you were born rather than any actual beliefs or practices. It's disingenuous at best.

I don't think your response is in good faith, since you are responding to a comment where I explicitly say that I have made no reference to where someone is born, only to their allegiance. Do you not understand what the term "national" means? A significant number of US nationals were not born here, being born here is not a prerequisite to be a national. While the same is largely not true for China, there are many people born in China who are no longer Chinese nationals because they have renounced their citizenship as part of immigrating and naturalizing elsewhere. The statement I made is not about ethnicity or birthplace, it's about allegiance. /Every/ citizen of China is required by Chinese law to participate in espionage either directly or indirectly as requested, and they are requested, the evidence is insurmountable.

hughesjj 3y ago
> there are many people born in China who are no longer Chinese nationals because they have renounced their citizenship as part of immigrating and naturalizing elsewhere. Do tell, how does one go about naturalizing elsewhere? In the country I live in, it typically takes over ten years and requires establishing a support system in said country first (employment, social connection, etc). If you ban everyone from a country from immigrating (which is exactly what you're proposing for all birthright citizenship countries), you prevent naturalization from even being a possibility. You claiming I'm arguing in bad faith while ignoring the Titanic sinking your argument did give me a chuckle though, I grant you that.
- tristor 3y ago
  I stopped replying in this thread earlier due to dang’s comment. I am not going to respond fully, as your response is clearly /not/ in good faith. > If you ban everyone from a country from immigrating (which is exactly what you're proposing for all birthright citizenship countries) Nowhere do I say anything of the sort. I am pro—immigration generally. Stop trying to put words in my mouth and then battling the straw man.
ClumsyPilot 3y ago
> I don't think your response is in good faith I don't think yours's is, you pretend to draw a difference where no practical distinction exists. For 95% of people worldwide, birthplace IS nationality - you get 1 by birth, and only have 1. You can't renounce it, that would make you illegal alien. If you put up a corporate email "specifically Chinese citizens will get no promotions this year" you will have immediate lawsuits on your hands, it is discriminatory. Instead you should own up to to the fact that your position is illiberal, and provide serious evidence that the threat is so great, that liberal principles must be abandoned. Of course that is much tougher and less palatable argument to make.

renewiltord 3y ago

It's amusing that every alternative comment is the guy expressly saying he's talking about nationality held and who they hold allegiance to, and every response is a misunderstanding. This is normal stuff. You can even lose your US dual citizenship if you serve in another nation's armed forces. I actually pasted the sequence into ChatGPT and it seems to comprehend him easier than people responding to him. It is always interesting when the Turing test is failed because the bot is too smart and capable of comprehension.

hughesjj 3y ago
If your metric for comprehension is 'agree with op's viewpoint' then it shouldn't be surprising that chatgpt 'comprehends' op better. Y'all are splitting hairs trying to call it 'nationality' vs birth. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_nationality_law https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_nationality_law Like many countries, China has a policy of jus soli. Most countries will not allow you to renounce citizenship should it leave you stateless. So, until you get another citizenship, which is typically a multi year to decades long process, you don't really have a say as to what your 'nationality' is. It's not like an infant can reasonably consent to be given citizenship, or that they would even have the option if they could. The OPs metric for allegiance is nationality, which itself is determined by where you were born rather than any actual beliefs or practices. It's disingenuous at best.