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Then it's a wildy disproportionate military operation. Israeli lives are not worth 40x Palestinian ones.

rendall 3y ago
Why does this, relatively speaking, extremely low rate of civilian casualties concern you so? Honest question. Have you been similarly concerned by the extremely high rates of ongoing civilian casualties in Syria, Sudan, and Yemen? Those of the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan?
- LAC-Tech 3y ago
  Do you believe Israelis and non-Israelis are equal? Is the life of a Palestinian worth that of an Israeli?
  - rendall 3y ago
    Of course, generally speaking. If that Palestinian is Hamas or Islamic Jihad or other terrorist, no. My question was genuine. Are you as outraged over the deaths of the collective over 1M Syrians, Yemeni and Sudanese civilians as you are about the 10-30k Gazans?
tptacek 3y ago
It would be no more ethical to reap precisely the same number of innocent lives as Hamas took; in fact, it would arguably be less ethical, since you'd be laying bare your motivation of vengeance and reprisal. The judgement of whether a military operation is defensible is its objective and necessity, not the ratio of casualties inflicted on both sides. I think much of what's been done in Gaza is indefensible (the culpability is shared, but it's an enormous amount of culpability, there's plenty for Netanyahu to account for). But the logic of X Israelis to Y Palestinians doesn't hold and doesn't illuminate.
- rendall 3y ago
  What is indefensible by Israel in Gaza?
  - tptacek 3y ago
    In what way does this conversation get better if we get into that?
    - rendall 3y ago
      Perhaps I learn something new, of which I was not previously aware. Or, in articulating it, you do? It's possible we each have information the other does not.
      - tptacek 3y ago
        On any other topic maybe, but here the risks seem to outweigh the rewards. By all means, if I said something you disagree with, say so, and I'll read and maybe respond. Maybe I'll be persuaded, and maybe I won't. But for what I think are obvious reasons I am reluctant to expand the scope of this discussion.
        rendall 3y ago
        I'm not trying to provoke trouble. Just trying to understand what you meant. I do not believe that Israel is actually committing war crimes. I've seen no credible evidence for it. I have seen lots of evidence of war crime by Hamas by contrast. I'm not pro Israel because they are my "favorite team" or "preferred fandom". If Israel or any batik. I am pro Israel because, of the two competing narratives, theirs makes the most rational sense, and I do not ever hear rational rebuttals. Like never. If you have one, that'd be great. I mean, it would suck, but I wouldn't dismiss it. But you would be unique. I only ever hear debunked accusations rotated with diversion, whatabouts, non-sequitur, threats and counter accusations. Never, for instance, a rational answer to why people just accept Hamas' death toll without any skepticism. In fact, apparently the thread has been flagged. Still no direct response, though.

Why does this, relatively speaking, extremely low rate of civilian casualties concern you so? Honest question. Have you been similarly concerned by the extremely high rates of ongoing civilian casualties in Syria, Sudan, and Yemen? Those of the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan?

LAC-Tech 3y ago
Do you believe Israelis and non-Israelis are equal? Is the life of a Palestinian worth that of an Israeli?
- rendall 3y ago
  Of course, generally speaking. If that Palestinian is Hamas or Islamic Jihad or other terrorist, no. My question was genuine. Are you as outraged over the deaths of the collective over 1M Syrians, Yemeni and Sudanese civilians as you are about the 10-30k Gazans?

tptacek 3y ago

It would be no more ethical to reap precisely the same number of innocent lives as Hamas took; in fact, it would arguably be less ethical, since you'd be laying bare your motivation of vengeance and reprisal. The judgement of whether a military operation is defensible is its objective and necessity, not the ratio of casualties inflicted on both sides. I think much of what's been done in Gaza is indefensible (the culpability is shared, but it's an enormous amount of culpability, there's plenty for Netanyahu to account for). But the logic of X Israelis to Y Palestinians doesn't hold and doesn't illuminate.

rendall 3y ago
What is indefensible by Israel in Gaza?
- tptacek 3y ago
  In what way does this conversation get better if we get into that?
  - rendall 3y ago
    Perhaps I learn something new, of which I was not previously aware. Or, in articulating it, you do? It's possible we each have information the other does not.
    - tptacek 3y ago
      On any other topic maybe, but here the risks seem to outweigh the rewards. By all means, if I said something you disagree with, say so, and I'll read and maybe respond. Maybe I'll be persuaded, and maybe I won't. But for what I think are obvious reasons I am reluctant to expand the scope of this discussion.
      - rendall 3y ago
        I'm not trying to provoke trouble. Just trying to understand what you meant. I do not believe that Israel is actually committing war crimes. I've seen no credible evidence for it. I have seen lots of evidence of war crime by Hamas by contrast. I'm not pro Israel because they are my "favorite team" or "preferred fandom". If Israel or any batik. I am pro Israel because, of the two competing narratives, theirs makes the most rational sense, and I do not ever hear rational rebuttals. Like never. If you have one, that'd be great. I mean, it would suck, but I wouldn't dismiss it. But you would be unique. I only ever hear debunked accusations rotated with diversion, whatabouts, non-sequitur, threats and counter accusations. Never, for instance, a rational answer to why people just accept Hamas' death toll without any skepticism. In fact, apparently the thread has been flagged. Still no direct response, though.