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TikTok users bombard Congressional offices over bill that could ban app
- BadHumans 3y ago> “It’s so so bad. Our phones have not stopped ringing. They’re teenagers and old people saying they spend their whole day on the app and we can't take it away, I don't use Tiktok and don't care whether or not it is banned but this is pure addict behavior.
- kelseyfrog 3y agoYou mention fist order effects (whether or not you are affected by a ban), but I'm curious if there are any second-order (or more) effects that you have preferences about?
- BadHumans 3y agoNone that are exclusive to Tiktok. Social media apps like Tiktok, Instagram, etc are fast food. I enjoy fast food every once in a while but I certainly wouldn't live off the stuff or spend all day in a Taco Bell.
- falcolas 3y ago> this is pure addict behavior It's one part entertainment, one part news, one part streaming platform, and one part peer-to-peer communication. It makes sense people can spend a lot of time there if it replaces many different apps/TV shows/etc.
- 2OEH8eoCRo0 3y agoThe fact that they can add a popup and have this effect confirms that Congress is justified.
- remarkEon 3y agoThe pop up signaled that they are willing to emotionally manipulate millions of teens and young adults into doing what they want. Completely dumbfounding strategy here by TikTok.
- deadbolt 3y agoThat's an absolutely absurd definition of "emotional manipulation"
- BadHumans 3y agoDo you feel the same way when sites like Wikipedia use pop ups to talk about privacy legislation?
- remarkEon 3y agoCongress isn't considering a ban on Wikipedia because it's mission isn't emotional manipulation for profit. So, no.
- 2OEH8eoCRo0 3y agoTotally different situation. If Wikipedia somehow ended up with so much emotional influence that members of congress were getting 1000+ calls a day then maybe. Wikipedia ain't backed by the Chinese government though.
- BadHumans 3y agoI don't see it as a different thing. Both companies use their platforms to talk about legislation they feel is negative in one way or another. Wikipedia managing to get thousands of people to call congress over a bill that would ban encryption would be hailed as a miracle of democracy here.
- crtasm 3y agoI see a clear difference between a non-profit campaigning against something that would affect everyone and a private company campaigning against something that only affects their bottom line.
- rllearneratwork 3y ago[flagged]
- lupusreal 3y agoSeems like this sort of reaction could have the opposite effect and strengthen the convictions of the politicians who think tiktok is a problem.
- ncallaway 3y agoDepends. They’ll look up the voting record of callers. If their phones are ringing off the hook from people who mostly don’t have a history of voting you might be right. If their phones are ringing non-stop from people with a record of voting consistently, it’s much more likely to change their behavior.
- tivert 3y ago> If their phones are ringing non-stop from people with a record of voting consistently, it’s much more likely to change their behavior. American politicians can be craven or shortsighted don't think any of them are that craven or shortsighted. These callers are getting their cues from a entity ultimately controlled by a foreign adversary. Any politician who cares less about that than if the callers vote in November is the kind of politician would volunteer to be the lackey of foreign occupiers.
- kelseyfrog 3y agoThat's cute, but whether or not TikTok is banned or not is going to be decided by economic elite preferences[1], not by average citizen preferences. 1. https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/perspectives-on-politics/article/testing-theories-of-american-politics-elites-interest-groups-and-average-citizens/62327F513959D0A304D4893B382B992B https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/perspectives-on-poli...
- falcolas 3y agoOTOH, average citizen preference still shapes the blowback, and (many) politicians still care about these things.
- kelseyfrog 3y agoThere's no significant correlation between average citizen preferences and policy. If you want to reject the null hypothesis, you'll need evidence more than the statement "(many) politicians still care about these things." The world isn't fair.
- falcolas 3y agoDemocrats are polling ahead of Republicans in most states which have enacted abortion bans. They also won a majority of congress seats which were up in 2022. They're doing so because 80% of all Americans support abortion as health care. There's also the successful citizen-lead effort to put abortion as a right on the Ohio constitution. This despite a majority opposition from the state legislature. The consequences are delayed, but they are there.
- leereeves 3y agoWhere are you getting that from? > They also won a majority of congress seats which were up in 2022 No, Republicans won 20 Senate seats and 222 House seats in 2022, Democrats won 15 and 213. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2022_United_States_Senate_elections https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2022_United_States_Senate_elec... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2022_United_States_House_elections https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2022_United_States_House_elect... > Democrats are polling ahead of Republicans in most states which have enacted abortion bans That seems unlikely, given that Republicans are winning the nationwide general Congressional election polls and would certainly be doing better in red states than blue states. https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/polls/generic-ballot/ https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/polls/generic-ballot/
- jerojero 3y agoIf it's not tiktok it'll be reels or shorts or perhaps a new app that will do basically the same. That from a "tiktok is bad for you" perspective. From a security and economic perspective there's a big difference between the company behind it being Meta or bytedance. Then again, if tiktok people flock to reels we'd sort of have a big concentration of the social media market in the hands of Meta. Concerning, looking into this, etc. Ultimately I do believe the issue here is more of a "we don't want Americans using a Chinese app" than anything else. And from there they seek reasons to justify the ban.
- mistermann 3y agoThe US government plausibly has the opportunity for stronger influence over domestic corporations, and I think there is some non-trivial amounts of evidence to support this theory. Personally, I much prefer that China hosts this substantial propaganda platform, I believe it to offer a nice counterbalance to the domestic propaganda we are subjected to.
- falcolas 3y ago> From a security and economic perspective there's a big difference between the company behind it being Meta or bytedance. Only for Americans. Not much different for the remaining 96% of the world.
- strombofulous 3y agoYes, well, this is a story about American senators being contacted by their American constituents about an American bill that will affect how Americans interact with this app while in America. So it is a bit relevant here
- falcolas 3y agoTrue, but any US ban will have effects beyond just the US. It's also important to remind folks that what TikTok is doing is no different than what Meta (et.al.) is doing.
- 3y ago
- dv_dt 3y agoIt's a version of yellow scare which is a tiresome repetition of what happened in the past internments during WWII, in the 80s-90s w/ Japan, and today with China. Either tiktok the app is doing something wrong and needs controlled - but that should come in a form of regulation to apply to all social media apps. Or foreign investment ownership needs limits, but same thing, there should be a standard that applies to all foreign control concerns that should be expressed more generally than a singular app.
- JumpCrisscross 3y ago> Or foreign investment ownership needs limits, but same thing It’s a general foreign ownership of social media bill. We already have foreign ownership restrictions on traditional media.
- dv_dt 3y agoThis draft [1], linked from this CNN article [2], starts with: To protect the national security of the United States from the threat posed by foreign adversary controlled applications, such as TikTok and any successor application or service and any other application or service developed or provided by ByteDance Ltd. or an entity under the control of ByteDance Ltd. And names TikTok and ByteDance specifically in it's contents which grants the power to do so, but does not suggest any particular standards why other than designations as a "Foreign Adversary". Which is basically a circular framework for bias. Would this apply to X with a large investment from Saudi Arabia for example? [1] https://d1dth6e84htgma.cloudfront.net/TIKTOK_xml_a8572d67bb.pdf https://d1dth6e84htgma.cloudfront.net/TIKTOK_xml_a8572d67bb.... [2] https://edition.cnn.com/2024/03/07/tech/congress-bill-bans-tiktok-america/index.html https://edition.cnn.com/2024/03/07/tech/congress-bill-bans-t...
- JumpCrisscross 3y agoThat’s the summary. > Would this apply to X with a large investment from Saudi Arabia for example? No, it’s not a foreign adversary country [1]. [1] https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-15/subtitle-A/part-7/subpart-A/section-7.4 https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-15/subtitle-A/part-7/subp...
- mostlysimilar 3y agoI don't think a healthy government should be deciding what software we install. I think a healthy government should be enforcing monopoly laws and data portability laws that would have fostered the growth of a TikTok-like in the USA. If we had a healthy ecosystem of interconnected platforms and laws that worked to counter the extreme network effects of social media platforms we wouldn't have to worry about a major content stream getting piped through our largest geopolitical rival.
- totaldex 3y agoWhat sorts of "healthy laws" would you suggest the government pass to curb TikTok specifically?
- core-utility 3y agoThey're not deciding what software we install, did you read the article? The bill would require ByteDance (TikTok's parent company) to stop sending all this user data to China where it is ultimately used by the CCP. I'd argue that this bill doesn't go far enough, and companies of a certain size should be required to home US citizen data in the US, where it's subject to our laws and regulations.
- logicchains 3y agoDid you read the article? Bytedance isn't just required to stop sending all data to China, it's required to divest itself of Chinese ownership.
- tivert 3y ago> Did you read the article? Bytedance isn't just required to stop sending all data to China, it's required to divest itself of Chinese ownership. Which makes sense. Do you really want an entity with the demonstrated capability to coordinate mass political action (i.e. this TikTok popup) to be under the influence of the Chinese Communist Party? It's like if Putin owned Facebook.
- riskable 3y ago
- keiferski 3y agoIf this goes anywhere, in all likelihood the app will be forced to sell to an American owner. I highly doubt that it will be banned entirely.
- Aaronstotle 3y agoYeah, I remember that a few years ago there was talk of forcing a sale to Oracle. Not sure why that fell through, but that action seems like its the most likely outcome.
- falcolas 3y agoOracle is currently hosting the databases for TikTok's American customers, FWIW.
- JumpCrisscross 3y ago> in all likelihood the app will be forced to sell to an American owner That is the bill. ByteDance would have to sell TikTok to a non-foreign adversary country owner. It could be American, but also e.g. European.
- micromacrofoot 3y agoRemove (or open) black-box algorithmic recommendation engines and it's much less of an issue. The main problem with TikTok, from my perspective, is that they can tweak a few parameters and do something like intentionally sway public opinion or attempt to radicalize a subset of people. This is a similar issue with domestic social media (Instagram knowingly harming teenage girls' mental health, YouTube recommending radicalism, Facebook facilitating Rohingya genocide and failing to act despite reports, etc) Our government has completely failed us when it comes to evaluating these issues. It's impossible to expect the average not-so-savvy person to do it for themselves or their children. Platforms of a certain size should absolutely be scrutinized because they are so broad reaching that they can alter the fabric of society (unknowingly, or more troubling, knowingly and without oversight). It's a little incredible to me, that even within the tech industry, we think so highly of ourselves that most people still willingly subject themselves to these unknowns for hours every day.
- lordfrito 3y agoIs this grass roots support or an astroturfing campaign? I find it difficult to believe that your average "addicted to social media" user cares enough to contact congress about it. I'd be surprised if anyone stood up in favor of Facebook, Insta-whatever, etc.
- falcolas 3y agoIt's not only TikTok prompting people, it's also the content creators whose livelihoods exist on TikTok who are prompting people. The speed and stealth with which congress is moving this through adds a certain sense of urgency to the message.
- Karunamon 3y agoIs there any actual, concrete data about the supposed harm Tiktok poses to health or security? The first one seems like out-of-touch geriatric politicians having a go at a wedge issue in an election year, and the second one places it on equal footing with Facebook and YouTube. I don't find the "China scary" motivations behind this bill to be particularly convincing.
- JumpCrisscross 3y agoHere is the bill [1]. This is NOT a TikTok ban. It instead gives ByteDance 165 days to sell at least 80% of TikTok. The rules apply to any social media controlled by a foreign adversary country [2]. (There is also a data portability requirement.) [1] https://selectcommitteeontheccp.house.gov/sites/evo-subsites/selectcommitteeontheccp.house.gov/files/evo-media-document/Protecting%20Americans%20From%20Foriegn%20Adversary%20Controlled%20Applications_3.5.24.pdf https://selectcommitteeontheccp.house.gov/sites/evo-subsites... [2] https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-15/subtitle-A/part-7/subpart-A/section-7.4 https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-15/subtitle-A/part-7/subp...
- stnmtn 3y agoWhat is the difference? A different company could "buy" TikTok and it would be allowed in the US?
- JumpCrisscross 3y ago> What is the difference? An entity without a legal duty to the CCP would control it. (Doesn’t have to be American.)
- chad_strategic 3y agoLast time I checked you can't access X or facebook in China? The government shouldn't tell us what to do... but then again I wound't using the Chinese tracking device called TikTok. (or facebook/X)
- daft_pink 3y agoTo me it’s about not being a sucker. Why should we let them do this here when our apps are completely banned there on national security concerns? The us should allow free speech but also use standard tit for tat diplomacy as simple fairness to try and encourage global and fair markets.
- beej71 3y agoI guess, despite the various arguments for the ban, I'm always a little concerned when the government tells companies like Apple what apps they can and can't distribute.