4 ms·

You're being a tad too literal with your critique (if I may). The whole point is to take you into a realm that's utterly absurd from the male perspective -- whi

You're being a tad too literal with your critique (if I may). The whole point is to take you into a realm that's utterly absurd from the male perspective -- which is entirely my point in writing this. Yes, male nurses face weird moments in life - but as you say it's mostly from other men. That has nothing to do with being a woman in the tech industry who get to listen to cracks about "being on the rag" or PMSing when they're aggressive. Next time you're with a female coworker, notice how often you and the other men in the group look at her chest. Notice how often she ignores this and how completely oblivious the other men are that she's overlooking their behavior. If you don't believe me - and if you know this woman well enough - ask her. You'd be surprised the shit women deal with.

tomp 14y ago
> You'd be surprised the shit women deal with. I'm not sure, but I think you're being too general. I'd rather state this: You'd be surprised by the shit *attractive* women have to deal with. And I 'm pretty sure that attractive men have to deal with the same kind of "shit". They just react to it differently. Edit: I expected the downvotes, but please reply, do you disagree with the stated facts (i.e. does you experience differ from mine), or with the manner they were stated in?
- TheSOB88 14y ago
  Attractive men DON'T have to deal with the same kind of shit, in general, because they are not a minority. They are not in a minority with social precedents to keep them down, which is what this article is all about. Institutionalized sexualization of women through teasing and joking is pretty common. This piece is trying to get you to where you try to understand what it's like. Most of us have wondered if our bulge was big enough - imagine if it was judged daily, by every oncoming woman, in every meeting. Imagine if you were constantly teased about getting a boner, and people acted as if it were normal. I imagine some people around here aren't very good at imagining, are too literal, and hence react badly to this sort of thing.
  - JanezStupar 14y ago
    You are obviously not an attractive male. I've had to put up with quite a lot from women of all kinds and I'm not even that attractive. I'm not going to say more, since I will get called a pussy and a bitch. But lets please stop pretending that only men are perverts and that all sexual discrimination and indecent behavior towards other people comes from men.
    - TheSOB88 14y ago
      You obviously are a jerk. But sadly that's also normal amongst our CS population.
      - NotMyMorals 14y ago
        >You obviously are a jerk. And you are obviously a "nice guy."
        TheSOB88 14y ago
        Yeah, thanks - I do try to do the right thing. But that doesn't mean I'm a pushover. You can be alpha and still be a nice guy, it's just how you deal with those who -aren't- nice that matters.
    - roguecoder 14y ago
      Women are inherently, inescapably what you fear being called. Try to imagine how that must feel, to have the worst insult people around you can imagine to be "I'm like you."
  - yummyfajitas 14y ago
    Women don't have their chests looked at in fields where they aren't a minority? Or is minority status merely a red herring?
  - tomp 14y ago
    Reading your reply, I had an idea... Maybe women perceive men as being sexually discriminating because they only receive sexual comments from men. When I try to think about it, I (as a man) also receive much more sexual comments from men. Maybe it is simply that men are much more open talking about sex, and when we do it with everybody, men and women alike, but when women hear it, they think it has something to do with them being women... I don't know if I'm correct, generally, but in my social circles, we joke about sexual stuff a lot. (With friends, of course, not at workplace.)
- bjornsing 14y ago
  As a very attractive man ;) in the tech industry I can tell you you're completely wrong. No, just kidding, no down votes, please. :) But seriously, in my experience good looks do help in getting you hired in tech. I've thought about it a lot and I think it's because men (perhaps less attractive men) like being the superior of an attractive man. It somehow increases their own feeling of "primal status" to be telling somebody attractive what to do. Ridiculous, I know, but I think it's true. :) You should really have processes in place to prevent frivolous hiring of attractive men. ;) After you're hired I don't know though...
- deleted 14y ago
  [deleted]
- koeselitz 14y ago
  So let me boil this down. You don't believe women in general have to deal with "shit" - you think it's attractive women that deal with that shit. And moreover the fact that they're women has nothing to do with it; the only bias here is against attractive people in general. If I'm reading this correctly, you're saying sexism is not a problem at all in the real world. Did I make a mistake in reading your comment?
  - NotMyMorals 14y ago
    I don't know about him, but "sexism" is not a problem at all in the real world. "Sexism" is a concept invented by cultural Marxists who openly proposed its use to disrupt existing cultural groups for the benefit of certain social classes (intellectual workers, etc.) and primarily exists in the modern business environment to make money for law firms. So, no, "sexism" is not the problem, the problem is "anti-sexism."
    - NotMyMorals 14y ago
      In the above, "intellectual workers" would probably translate better as "political workers" as far as its use in cultural Marxist writings.
  - tomp 14y ago
    No, I don't think sexism is a problem. Rape is a problem. Child pornography is a problem. Hunger, drought, tsunamis are problems. Huge companies poisoning people, land, and wasting tons of food is a problem. Sexism? Just a bunch of people who live practically perfect lives, and have no problems, and are bored, so they create some. I'm slowly finding this conversation too Orwellian. Why do you care about what I think?!? I might be a phedophile, a rasist, but as long as I'm not hurting other people, I'm better that 99% of the world population. I find some people (so far only women) attractive, therefore I'd like to have sex with them, if I got a chance (I don't actively seek such chances, because sex with most women is boring, in my experience, unless (my) emotions are evolved). I don't make sexual comments at work, not because I would think they are inappropriate per se (I wouldn't make comments about someone being fat either, not because I think it's unappropriate, but because I don't want to hurt their feelings even more without good reason), but because at work, I like to focus on work. Edit: to put things into perspective: my grandmother was born in 1930s. There were 8 children. One died very young. Her father was killed by nazi collaborators. He had a job. Her mother didn't. She had to support a family of 7, I don't know how. They made a drink out of tree bark, because coffee wasn't available. My grandmother smiles more that most people I see commuting daily on the London subway. When people say, "we have a crisis", it makes me smile and think how deluded they are...
yukyukyuk 14y ago
I totally thought the essay was written by a woman before I realized the truth. I can't imagine why you wrote this. This whole notion that "women need men to defend them" is just so ridiculously patronizing and condescending. If the women don't like how they're being treated, they can complain about it themselves. Nobody cares about this white knight nonsense, so quit clogging up the tubes. Also, you have no idea what you're talking about. I have never heard of a woman complain about how often guys look at her chest. And if a woman ever did complain about that, I would think her incredibly conceited. This is why women get boob jobs, and AFAIK women who get boob jobs and who get increased sexual attention from males report substantially increased confidence.
kateray 14y ago
Wait, so what's the point in taking you into a realm that's utterly absurd? I'm not sure that it helps men relate to women's experiences if it feels absurd....
- xyzzyz 14y ago
  The point is that it's absurd, but women actually deal with this kind of shit. Ridiculous, huh?
  - JanezStupar 14y ago
    And men get beaten up in the streets for no reason way more than women. Pretty absurd, but we deal with it.
  - knowtheory 14y ago
    Yeah, but folks who don't believe that women actually deal with this shit will just be completely unphased by the turn-around. They deny that this happens and that it is just women being "oversensitive" or "reading into things too much" or whatever. You're not going to get them on board either by making the absurdist claim, or by trying to hook their sympathy through a post like this.
zerostar07 14y ago
So you claim that all women are threatened when men look at their breast. Because women are pure and come from venus and all the other b.s. from last century. And the men who look at said breasts are sadistic rapists who can't keep it to their pants thus why she should feel threatened. Plus a woman looking at a crotch is a nympho who wants it right there right now. I think you are missing the entire point of gender inequality.
sycr 14y ago
Rob, I think that if you re-read knowtheory's comment you may find that your reply does not address its substance - and that, in fact, you are in broad agreement. Knowtheory cited the case of male nursing precisely because it's a dissimilar example to women in tech. His critique is that it's not enough just to swap gender roles, because we carry along all of the mental and cultural baggage associated with masculinity and femininity. When we recontextualize gender roles, we're not really understanding the contrary perspective with any depth. Put another way, there's a difference being a man in women's shoes and being a woman in women's shoes. Anways, thanks for taking the time to write the article - it was enjoyable to read and thought provoking. I'm always appreciate of articles that try to promote understanding instead of enforcement.
- knowtheory 14y ago
  You're absolutely correct. I have methodological qualms, not material ones. Thanks for pointing this out :)
knowtheory 14y ago
There's a couple ways i can see to go about this, but let me stick with my current frame. I appreciate (more now than when i initially wrote my comment) that you're trying to take folks through the uncanny valley. My concern is that the 'ick' feeling you get from the uncanny valley relies upon the perception of the viewer. People who deny that sexism is a problem aren't going to follow you into the valley. They deny that there's a valley there at all. With the mode that you've chosen to make your point I don't see how to address the criticisms from folks who deny sexism simply by saying "this guy is complaining about nothing, or perceived slights and imputed discomforts that aren't real, just the same way that women in the tech industry do!" > Next time you're with a female coworker... This kind of gets to the heart of the matter though doesn't it? Given the gender disparity in programming, most devs don't have female coworkers who aren't also separated by some other sort of cultural distinction (e.g. engineering vs. biz). > ...notice how often you and the other men in the group look at her chest. I will admit to having created awkward situations (that have gone unacknowledged by either me or female friend) by inadvertently doing this. Super, super awkward. > You'd be surprised the shit women deal with. I'm not surprised simply because my entire university career was spent in two different worlds. There was the computational linguistics world which was 50/50 gender split, and there were no weird unspoken assumption that dudes are better at compling than women are. And then there was the comp sci world, where my female friends from comp ling would get hit on in incredibly passive-aggressive ways, had group projects fall apart because a guy in the group was pissed off that my friend wouldn't go out with them, and the gender disparity was 1 (or maybe 2) girls out of a classroom of 40. One of the reasons I think programming should be taught outside of computer science departments is to get away with the cultural assumptions and baggage that engineering fields like CS carry. That is also the reason why I currently work for journalists along side a journalism school. There are women out there who are interested in learning how to program, build tools, sift data and all manner of technical analytical tasks, they're just not in computer science. And frankly, i'm glad they're not.
oh_sigh 14y ago
What world do you live in where people make jokes about PMS to coworkers? Honestly, in my lifetime, I have heard maybe hundreds of jokes about PMS from women, and maybe 2 from men.
- Ixiaus 14y ago
  In general, I have to agree with this - but the part that bothers me is men are being stigmatized for having the conversations that are typical for a group of guys. What is frustrating is women often complain about not being included - but when they do and when they are the minority (2 women in a group of 10 guys, say) they also complain about sexism or "boys talking about sex all the time". Whatever else it is we talk about. I dunno what I'm saying anymore, this topic is remarkably frustrating for me as a man because I can see where women are coming from, they don't want to feel like the minority even though they are and I don't necessarily see anything wrong with the way men "socialize" with each other but it is also a deterrent for women in joining our industry. Another point to raise. What if women wanted in on men's football? Casting away the physical disparity and only considering the cultural implications, I could see this very same kind of interaction happening - the only difference is, in our industry the barrier to entry is an intellectual one but we still bring all of our gender-assigned cultural baggage along with us...
davidtanner 14y ago
I'll stop looking at womens' chests when they stop looking at men's arms, legs, groin and ass. That said, both men and women can look in appropriate glancing ways or inappropriate staring ways.
- Ixiaus 14y ago
  There are two things here that need to be addressed: 1. I agree, hypocrisy is ridiculous - I workout 6 days a week, am deeply engrained in programming, and have females everywhere (in my industry and outside of it) constantly staring at me, or making comments about my "nice ass". Does it bother me? No. But that leads into my second point... 2. Gender roles and cultures are very different, I agree that there is a problem but it's hard to pin-point it because honestly, passive-aggressive geeks that aren't getting laid just embarrass me as a man when I see them try to interact with women and the women that are bitching and moaning about sexism are doing exactly that: bitching and moaning. I don't have a solution for this, boys will be boys and girls will be girls - our industry has a history of being a place for the socially awkward and inept to collect. There is a correlation there even if not all members fit the stereotype. [EDIT] I'm a dude btw

tomp 14y ago

> You'd be surprised the shit women deal with. I'm not sure, but I think you're being too general. I'd rather state this: You'd be surprised by the shit *attractive* women have to deal with. And I 'm pretty sure that attractive men have to deal with the same kind of "shit". They just react to it differently. Edit: I expected the downvotes, but please reply, do you disagree with the stated facts (i.e. does you experience differ from mine), or with the manner they were stated in?

TheSOB88 14y ago
Attractive men DON'T have to deal with the same kind of shit, in general, because they are not a minority. They are not in a minority with social precedents to keep them down, which is what this article is all about. Institutionalized sexualization of women through teasing and joking is pretty common. This piece is trying to get you to where you try to understand what it's like. Most of us have wondered if our bulge was big enough - imagine if it was judged daily, by every oncoming woman, in every meeting. Imagine if you were constantly teased about getting a boner, and people acted as if it were normal. I imagine some people around here aren't very good at imagining, are too literal, and hence react badly to this sort of thing.
- JanezStupar 14y ago
  You are obviously not an attractive male. I've had to put up with quite a lot from women of all kinds and I'm not even that attractive. I'm not going to say more, since I will get called a pussy and a bitch. But lets please stop pretending that only men are perverts and that all sexual discrimination and indecent behavior towards other people comes from men.
  - TheSOB88 14y ago
    You obviously are a jerk. But sadly that's also normal amongst our CS population.
    - NotMyMorals 14y ago
      >You obviously are a jerk. And you are obviously a "nice guy."
      - TheSOB88 14y ago
        Yeah, thanks - I do try to do the right thing. But that doesn't mean I'm a pushover. You can be alpha and still be a nice guy, it's just how you deal with those who -aren't- nice that matters.
  - roguecoder 14y ago
    Women are inherently, inescapably what you fear being called. Try to imagine how that must feel, to have the worst insult people around you can imagine to be "I'm like you."
- yummyfajitas 14y ago
  Women don't have their chests looked at in fields where they aren't a minority? Or is minority status merely a red herring?
- tomp 14y ago
  Reading your reply, I had an idea... Maybe women perceive men as being sexually discriminating because they only receive sexual comments from men. When I try to think about it, I (as a man) also receive much more sexual comments from men. Maybe it is simply that men are much more open talking about sex, and when we do it with everybody, men and women alike, but when women hear it, they think it has something to do with them being women... I don't know if I'm correct, generally, but in my social circles, we joke about sexual stuff a lot. (With friends, of course, not at workplace.)
bjornsing 14y ago
As a very attractive man ;) in the tech industry I can tell you you're completely wrong. No, just kidding, no down votes, please. :) But seriously, in my experience good looks do help in getting you hired in tech. I've thought about it a lot and I think it's because men (perhaps less attractive men) like being the superior of an attractive man. It somehow increases their own feeling of "primal status" to be telling somebody attractive what to do. Ridiculous, I know, but I think it's true. :) You should really have processes in place to prevent frivolous hiring of attractive men. ;) After you're hired I don't know though...
deleted 14y ago
[deleted]
koeselitz 14y ago
So let me boil this down. You don't believe women in general have to deal with "shit" - you think it's attractive women that deal with that shit. And moreover the fact that they're women has nothing to do with it; the only bias here is against attractive people in general. If I'm reading this correctly, you're saying sexism is not a problem at all in the real world. Did I make a mistake in reading your comment?
- NotMyMorals 14y ago
  I don't know about him, but "sexism" is not a problem at all in the real world. "Sexism" is a concept invented by cultural Marxists who openly proposed its use to disrupt existing cultural groups for the benefit of certain social classes (intellectual workers, etc.) and primarily exists in the modern business environment to make money for law firms. So, no, "sexism" is not the problem, the problem is "anti-sexism."
  - NotMyMorals 14y ago
    In the above, "intellectual workers" would probably translate better as "political workers" as far as its use in cultural Marxist writings.
- tomp 14y ago
  No, I don't think sexism is a problem. Rape is a problem. Child pornography is a problem. Hunger, drought, tsunamis are problems. Huge companies poisoning people, land, and wasting tons of food is a problem. Sexism? Just a bunch of people who live practically perfect lives, and have no problems, and are bored, so they create some. I'm slowly finding this conversation too Orwellian. Why do you care about what I think?!? I might be a phedophile, a rasist, but as long as I'm not hurting other people, I'm better that 99% of the world population. I find some people (so far only women) attractive, therefore I'd like to have sex with them, if I got a chance (I don't actively seek such chances, because sex with most women is boring, in my experience, unless (my) emotions are evolved). I don't make sexual comments at work, not because I would think they are inappropriate per se (I wouldn't make comments about someone being fat either, not because I think it's unappropriate, but because I don't want to hurt their feelings even more without good reason), but because at work, I like to focus on work. Edit: to put things into perspective: my grandmother was born in 1930s. There were 8 children. One died very young. Her father was killed by nazi collaborators. He had a job. Her mother didn't. She had to support a family of 7, I don't know how. They made a drink out of tree bark, because coffee wasn't available. My grandmother smiles more that most people I see commuting daily on the London subway. When people say, "we have a crisis", it makes me smile and think how deluded they are...

yukyukyuk 14y ago

I totally thought the essay was written by a woman before I realized the truth. I can't imagine why you wrote this. This whole notion that "women need men to defend them" is just so ridiculously patronizing and condescending. If the women don't like how they're being treated, they can complain about it themselves. Nobody cares about this white knight nonsense, so quit clogging up the tubes. Also, you have no idea what you're talking about. I have never heard of a woman complain about how often guys look at her chest. And if a woman ever did complain about that, I would think her incredibly conceited. This is why women get boob jobs, and AFAIK women who get boob jobs and who get increased sexual attention from males report substantially increased confidence.

kateray 14y ago

Wait, so what's the point in taking you into a realm that's utterly absurd? I'm not sure that it helps men relate to women's experiences if it feels absurd....

xyzzyz 14y ago
The point is that it's absurd, but women actually deal with this kind of shit. Ridiculous, huh?
- JanezStupar 14y ago
  And men get beaten up in the streets for no reason way more than women. Pretty absurd, but we deal with it.
- knowtheory 14y ago
  Yeah, but folks who don't believe that women actually deal with this shit will just be completely unphased by the turn-around. They deny that this happens and that it is just women being "oversensitive" or "reading into things too much" or whatever. You're not going to get them on board either by making the absurdist claim, or by trying to hook their sympathy through a post like this.

zerostar07 14y ago

So you claim that all women are threatened when men look at their breast. Because women are pure and come from venus and all the other b.s. from last century. And the men who look at said breasts are sadistic rapists who can't keep it to their pants thus why she should feel threatened. Plus a woman looking at a crotch is a nympho who wants it right there right now. I think you are missing the entire point of gender inequality.

sycr 14y ago

Rob, I think that if you re-read knowtheory's comment you may find that your reply does not address its substance - and that, in fact, you are in broad agreement. Knowtheory cited the case of male nursing precisely because it's a dissimilar example to women in tech. His critique is that it's not enough just to swap gender roles, because we carry along all of the mental and cultural baggage associated with masculinity and femininity. When we recontextualize gender roles, we're not really understanding the contrary perspective with any depth. Put another way, there's a difference being a man in women's shoes and being a woman in women's shoes. Anways, thanks for taking the time to write the article - it was enjoyable to read and thought provoking. I'm always appreciate of articles that try to promote understanding instead of enforcement.

knowtheory 14y ago
You're absolutely correct. I have methodological qualms, not material ones. Thanks for pointing this out :)

knowtheory 14y ago

There's a couple ways i can see to go about this, but let me stick with my current frame. I appreciate (more now than when i initially wrote my comment) that you're trying to take folks through the uncanny valley. My concern is that the 'ick' feeling you get from the uncanny valley relies upon the perception of the viewer. People who deny that sexism is a problem aren't going to follow you into the valley. They deny that there's a valley there at all. With the mode that you've chosen to make your point I don't see how to address the criticisms from folks who deny sexism simply by saying "this guy is complaining about nothing, or perceived slights and imputed discomforts that aren't real, just the same way that women in the tech industry do!" > Next time you're with a female coworker... This kind of gets to the heart of the matter though doesn't it? Given the gender disparity in programming, most devs don't have female coworkers who aren't also separated by some other sort of cultural distinction (e.g. engineering vs. biz). > ...notice how often you and the other men in the group look at her chest. I will admit to having created awkward situations (that have gone unacknowledged by either me or female friend) by inadvertently doing this. Super, super awkward. > You'd be surprised the shit women deal with. I'm not surprised simply because my entire university career was spent in two different worlds. There was the computational linguistics world which was 50/50 gender split, and there were no weird unspoken assumption that dudes are better at compling than women are. And then there was the comp sci world, where my female friends from comp ling would get hit on in incredibly passive-aggressive ways, had group projects fall apart because a guy in the group was pissed off that my friend wouldn't go out with them, and the gender disparity was 1 (or maybe 2) girls out of a classroom of 40. One of the reasons I think programming should be taught outside of computer science departments is to get away with the cultural assumptions and baggage that engineering fields like CS carry. That is also the reason why I currently work for journalists along side a journalism school. There are women out there who are interested in learning how to program, build tools, sift data and all manner of technical analytical tasks, they're just not in computer science. And frankly, i'm glad they're not.

oh_sigh 14y ago

What world do you live in where people make jokes about PMS to coworkers? Honestly, in my lifetime, I have heard maybe hundreds of jokes about PMS from women, and maybe 2 from men.

Ixiaus 14y ago
In general, I have to agree with this - but the part that bothers me is men are being stigmatized for having the conversations that are typical for a group of guys. What is frustrating is women often complain about not being included - but when they do and when they are the minority (2 women in a group of 10 guys, say) they also complain about sexism or "boys talking about sex all the time". Whatever else it is we talk about. I dunno what I'm saying anymore, this topic is remarkably frustrating for me as a man because I can see where women are coming from, they don't want to feel like the minority even though they are and I don't necessarily see anything wrong with the way men "socialize" with each other but it is also a deterrent for women in joining our industry. Another point to raise. What if women wanted in on men's football? Casting away the physical disparity and only considering the cultural implications, I could see this very same kind of interaction happening - the only difference is, in our industry the barrier to entry is an intellectual one but we still bring all of our gender-assigned cultural baggage along with us...

davidtanner 14y ago

I'll stop looking at womens' chests when they stop looking at men's arms, legs, groin and ass. That said, both men and women can look in appropriate glancing ways or inappropriate staring ways.

Ixiaus 14y ago
There are two things here that need to be addressed: 1. I agree, hypocrisy is ridiculous - I workout 6 days a week, am deeply engrained in programming, and have females everywhere (in my industry and outside of it) constantly staring at me, or making comments about my "nice ass". Does it bother me? No. But that leads into my second point... 2. Gender roles and cultures are very different, I agree that there is a problem but it's hard to pin-point it because honestly, passive-aggressive geeks that aren't getting laid just embarrass me as a man when I see them try to interact with women and the women that are bitching and moaning about sexism are doing exactly that: bitching and moaning. I don't have a solution for this, boys will be boys and girls will be girls - our industry has a history of being a place for the socially awkward and inept to collect. There is a correlation there even if not all members fit the stereotype. [EDIT] I'm a dude btw