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Poland defended Western Europe from a Russian invasion in 1920 and will do so again. Reagan was the last defender of Europe (you can like him or not, having gr

Poland defended Western Europe from a Russian invasion in 1920 and will do so again. Reagan was the last defender of Europe (you can like him or not, having grown up in a left political climate in the 70s of Germany, I didn't), and Reforger '93 was the last time the US seriously considered defending Western Europe. It's clear that at least from Clinton on, the defense of Europe as a necessity for balancing world power was no longer on the table, "It's the economy, stupid!". Putin will create a crisis in the baltics and invade Poland over the Suwałki Gap, gets his ass kicked, troops getting stuck, there will be negotiations and that's that. Putin couldn't get weak Ukraine (Crimea was a coup) - Russia has 3.5x times the people and 100x the money - it's funny how people in the West still believe in the Soviet Union and the Red Army, against all evidence. The best troops of the Warsaw Pact were East Germanys NVA, and losing that and all other satelite states like Poland, there is no more Red Army.

fngjdflmdflg 3y ago
US has given money to Ukraine which is in Europe for many years, even before the current war, and has troops stationed in Poland and Germany and trains with a lot of European militaries (for example Finland even before it joined NATO). It is certainly possible that the US has given up on defending Europe just as anything is possible but I don't see any evidence for that. No NATO country has ever been attacked AFAIK so it doesn't seem reasonable to make such a certainly stated assertion about what would happen if that occurred, unless I am misunderstanding your point.
- KingOfCoders 3y ago
  There is a huge difference between money and (dead) bodies.
  - fngjdflmdflg 3y ago
    That is very true. If by "defending Western Europe" you really meant "defending Eastern Europe with US troops" then this would be a relevant data point.
- thatwasunusual 3y ago
  > No NATO country has ever been attacked The 9/11 attacks triggered article 5. It's also the only time that article has been triggered. So far...
empath-nirvana 3y ago
> It's clear that at least from Clinton on, I think from Clinton's point of view, at least for a large portion of his term, there was no one to defend europe _from_. Russia was in shambles and retreating everywhere.
- bluGill 3y ago
  In hindsight we know that was wrong. However I'll fully admit that if he has assassinated Putin I would have called him out on it even though we now wish he had.
  - empath-nirvana 3y ago
    He wasn't wrong. It was in a shambles and retreating everywhere. I think the actual failure was the US doing too much to exploit that and not enough to support democracy there. Russia really needed a Marshall plan from the west to stabilize them, and not western companies going in and helping kleptocrats loot the country. By the time Putin took over, the situation was already irreparable..
    - baybal2 3y ago
      [dead]

fngjdflmdflg 3y ago

US has given money to Ukraine which is in Europe for many years, even before the current war, and has troops stationed in Poland and Germany and trains with a lot of European militaries (for example Finland even before it joined NATO). It is certainly possible that the US has given up on defending Europe just as anything is possible but I don't see any evidence for that. No NATO country has ever been attacked AFAIK so it doesn't seem reasonable to make such a certainly stated assertion about what would happen if that occurred, unless I am misunderstanding your point.

KingOfCoders 3y ago
There is a huge difference between money and (dead) bodies.
- fngjdflmdflg 3y ago
  That is very true. If by "defending Western Europe" you really meant "defending Eastern Europe with US troops" then this would be a relevant data point.
thatwasunusual 3y ago
> No NATO country has ever been attacked The 9/11 attacks triggered article 5. It's also the only time that article has been triggered. So far...

empath-nirvana 3y ago

> It's clear that at least from Clinton on, I think from Clinton's point of view, at least for a large portion of his term, there was no one to defend europe _from_. Russia was in shambles and retreating everywhere.

bluGill 3y ago
In hindsight we know that was wrong. However I'll fully admit that if he has assassinated Putin I would have called him out on it even though we now wish he had.
- empath-nirvana 3y ago
  He wasn't wrong. It was in a shambles and retreating everywhere. I think the actual failure was the US doing too much to exploit that and not enough to support democracy there. Russia really needed a Marshall plan from the west to stabilize them, and not western companies going in and helping kleptocrats loot the country. By the time Putin took over, the situation was already irreparable..
  - baybal2 3y ago
    [dead]