4 ms·
Just in time for Trump to do the rug pull he agreed with Putin back in 2018, when they met in Helsinki and Trump took care to even destroy translator’s notes.
by pavlov 3y ago
Just in time for Trump to do the rug pull he agreed with Putin back in 2018, when they met in Helsinki and Trump took care to even destroy translator’s notes.
If he wins the election, NATO is toast and Putin has carte blanche over East Europe.
- seydor 3y agoSwedes would then be stupid to join nato knowing that Trump is more likely to win, and swedes are not stupid. The US foreign policy seems to have a continuity regardless of president or rhetoric-du-jour. Just look at china
- onlyrealcuzzo 3y agoPutin isn't even going to take Ukraine. So how's he going to reign free over all of Eastern Europe?
- stronglikedan 3y agoWhen, not if, and that's a good thing. I don't share your alarmist view. I think the other members of NATO will just start doing their fair share, as they should.
- apercu 3y agoI imagine that the actual truth to the situation is far more complicated than either of us understand and that NATO provides substantial benefits to the United States.
- KingOfCoders 3y agoNATO membership enables the US to have air bases in the UK and Turkey, Navy bases in Spain and Italy, and in other parts of Europe with overflight rights for military planes. Most of the air traffic for the US wars in the middle east goes through Germany, and most injured soldiers go back through Germany [0] Many US soldiers survive because they get through Landstuhl. Ramstein is also rumored to be the primary operation center for drone strikes, although the US military denies this. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Landstuhl_Regional_Medical_Center https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Landstuhl_Regional_Medical_Cen...
- unmole 3y ago> NATO membership enables the US to have air bases in the UK and Turkey The US has military bases in Qatar, Seychelles, and the Philippines. It's almost as if NATO membership has nothing to do with it.
- tharmas 3y ago[flagged]
- earthnail 3y agoThe consequences of living in a multilateral world will be very bad for the US. Right now, the US is the leader in a unilateral world. It is absolutely naive to think that this doesn’t come with huge advantages.
- lawn 3y agoSo you'd prefer countless of people getting raped and murdered... To make the point that other countries aren't also spending ludicrous amounts of money on the military? The lack of morals is stunning.
- KingOfCoders 3y agoPoland defended Western Europe from a Russian invasion in 1920 and will do so again. Reagan was the last defender of Europe (you can like him or not, having grown up in a left political climate in the 70s of Germany, I didn't), and Reforger '93 was the last time the US seriously considered defending Western Europe. It's clear that at least from Clinton on, the defense of Europe as a necessity for balancing world power was no longer on the table, "It's the economy, stupid!". Putin will create a crisis in the baltics and invade Poland over the Suwałki Gap, gets his ass kicked, troops getting stuck, there will be negotiations and that's that. Putin couldn't get weak Ukraine (Crimea was a coup) - Russia has 3.5x times the people and 100x the money - it's funny how people in the West still believe in the Soviet Union and the Red Army, against all evidence. The best troops of the Warsaw Pact were East Germanys NVA, and losing that and all other satelite states like Poland, there is no more Red Army.
- fngjdflmdflg 3y agoUS has given money to Ukraine which is in Europe for many years, even before the current war, and has troops stationed in Poland and Germany and trains with a lot of European militaries (for example Finland even before it joined NATO). It is certainly possible that the US has given up on defending Europe just as anything is possible but I don't see any evidence for that. No NATO country has ever been attacked AFAIK so it doesn't seem reasonable to make such a certainly stated assertion about what would happen if that occurred, unless I am misunderstanding your point.
- KingOfCoders 3y agoThere is a huge difference between money and (dead) bodies.
- fngjdflmdflg 3y agoThat is very true. If by "defending Western Europe" you really meant "defending Eastern Europe with US troops" then this would be a relevant data point.
- 3y ago
- rmbyrro 3y agoNot vouching for him, but Trump did alert the Germans about the risk of over relying on Russian energy [1]. He wanted Europe to become independent of Putin years before this crisis. He did not say these things in the most appropriate way, like everything he says, but it didn't seem like he wanted to weaken Europe before Russia, quite the opposite. [1] https://youtu.be/liGZGGQTYQk?si=Rafuq8eoKc84vpG1 https://youtu.be/liGZGGQTYQk?si=Rafuq8eoKc84vpG1
- KingOfCoders 3y agoHe wanted to sell US LNG. Not more and not less. Russia delivered gas to Western Europe for 60 years, the US could not guarantee LNG deliveries for 2 years [0] Hopefully the traffic through the Panama canal goes down so Europe can still get US LNG that would otherwise end up in Asia. [0] https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/us-lng-export-pause-leaves-eu-industry-odds-over-energy-security-2024-02-02/ https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/us-lng-export-pause-...
- rmbyrro 3y agoAnd now US LNG exports to Germany are booming: ~30x (!!!) from 2022 to 2023 [1]. Seems like there wasn't a better other option anyway, was there? Before invading Ukraine, Putin was arguably banking on the fact that he had Europe on his hands, not only for economic activity, but for survival during winter. He clearly didn't expect the way Europe responded. Maybe the invasion wouldn't have happened in the first place if Europe would have already demonstrated strength and energy independence in the first place? [1] https://www.eia.gov/dnav/ng/NG_MOVE_POE2_DCU_NUS-NGM_A.htm https://www.eia.gov/dnav/ng/NG_MOVE_POE2_DCU_NUS-NGM_A.htm
- jasonvorhe 3y agoIt has been quite common knowledge that one of the US' biggest fears has always been a strong German industry paired with cheap Russian energy. It's not like Trump or anyone else had to raise some kind of alert here. The dependency was quite obvious and a choice by Germany. Unfortunately they're nothing but a vassal NATO outpost by now so the deindustrialization is probably going to continue until some far right party takes over.
- Georgelemental 3y ago[flagged]
- pavlov 3y agoEU countries including Finland, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, and eastern Poland have been part of the Russian nation at some point since “ancient Rus”. What makes you think Putin doesn’t want them back? Kaliningrad sits there right in the middle of EU and NATO. That’s got to sting him. Trump’s second term will be his ticket to take a stab at fixing this geopolitical blemish, the mote in the Eastern god’s eye.
- jasonvorhe 3y agoI don't know, do you see Germany trying to reclaim territory right now? Is Austria laying claim to Hungary? What kind of argument is this?
- pavlov 3y agoIf you haven't noticed, Russia is actively reclaiming territory it claims as historically Russian. Why does it stop at Ukraine?
- jasonvorhe 3y agoThat summary only works if you leave out like 90% of the full story but I'm not going to attempt to convince you of anything. Shrug.
- AnimalMuppet 3y agoHe (and/or his people) have talked a lot about annexing at least part of Poland. Less sure about the Baltics, but I think there's been some yapping about them too. So, yeah, if you listen to what he and his people say, his motivations are not in doubt...
- Georgelemental 3y ago
- ursuscamp 3y agoThis ridiculous hysteria serves no purpose. People said all these same things before his first election, and if anything Trump just accelerated aggression with Russia, just like every president before him and Biden after him.
- renegade-otter 3y agoApologies for our Trump Derangement Syndrome. When he said that he will pull the US out of NATO and that Putin can do "whatever he wants", we will just pretend he is a comedian doing a bit.
- ursuscamp 3y agoHysterics will spend all day talking about what a liar Trump is right up until the moment he says something he's going to do that they think is bad, then all of a sudden he's telling the absolute truth. Trump lies, postures, hyperbolizes, boasts and self-promotes. More shamelessly than most politicians. We all know this. Trump isn't going to pull the U.S. out of NATO. He probably couldn't, even if he wanted to, which he doesn't. He just wants to force other countries to pay more, that's all. Stop with this nonsense already.
- 2OEH8eoCRo0 3y agoJohn Bolton doesn't think it's hysteria. https://lite.cnn.com/2024/02/12/politics/us-out-nato-second-trump-term-former-senior-adviser/index.html https://lite.cnn.com/2024/02/12/politics/us-out-nato-second-... > “NATO would be in real jeopardy,” John Bolton, Trump’s former national security adviser, agreed. “I think he would try to get out.”
- bryanlarsen 3y agoAnybody who thinks a 2024 Trump term would be anything like a 2016 Trump term hasn't been paying attention.
- tharmas 3y ago[flagged]