8 ms·

In Thailand this situation is quite terrible. The Mafia collects people with missing limbs and other disfigurations, basically the people who will elicit the gr

by wilfra 14y ago

In Thailand this situation is quite terrible. The Mafia collects people with missing limbs and other disfigurations, basically the people who will elicit the greatest sympathy, and forces them to sit on the same corners begging day after day, month after month and year after year - and turn all of the money they collect over to them. If they steal any, they die. In return they are provided with the bare minimum subsistence living one could imagine. This situation is so bad that the country had to pass a law giving the death penalty to anybody dismembering children for the purposes of turning them into beggars - because people were doing that on a large scale.

Muzza 14y ago
The situation is similar in Sweden, but I have thankfully not heard of anyone disfiguring someone else for these purposes. Yet. One of the glorious benefits of being a member of the EU is that we now have to put up with organized gangs of beggars coming in from Romania, Bulgaria etc harassing us on our streets. (The leftists have proposed that we add these people to our welfare rolls and give them their own apartments - an entitlement not available even to Swedish citizens, mind you. Of course, the only reasonable response is to institute a sufficiently vague law against vagrancy and then deport them.)
- Create 14y ago
  Exporting organised crime will not solve your problems. Especially regarding the EU. http://www.dw.de/dw/article/0,,15932840,00.html http://www.dw.de/dw/article/0,,15932840,00.html http://www.dw.de/dw/article/0,,15921927,00.html http://www.dw.de/dw/article/0,,15921927,00.html http://www.thelocal.de/national/20120503-42321.html http://www.thelocal.de/national/20120503-42321.html http://www.thelocal.se/31650/20110126/ http://www.thelocal.se/31650/20110126/ http://www.economist.com/node/6919139 http://www.economist.com/node/6919139 ...etc.
  - Muzza 14y ago
    I am 100% confident that deporting all foreign beggars in Sweden will solve the problem of foreign beggars in Sweden. I don't really care if this doesn't get to the "bottom of the problem" or whatever. I (or the Swedish people in general) simply cannot be held responsible for the suffering of the entire fucking world. Your links don't make any sense. The DDR used slave labor? Ingvar Kamprad uses various tax avoidance schemes? Did you choose them simply because they are related to Sweden?
    - m__ 14y ago
      What a brilliant "solution": if somebody does something you are not happy with... just deport them!
      - Muzza 14y ago
        Certainly. Foreign criminals are deported all the time.
    - Create 14y ago
      3 Free movement of capital 4 Free movement of services 5 Free movement of people 5.1 Free movement of workers 5.2 Free movement for the non-economically active 5.3 The Schengen Area https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_Freedoms_%28European_Union%29 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_Freedoms_%28European_Unio... I also invite you to read the labels of ie. the plying wooden chairs and crude mugs from which all those world-mesmerising profits arise.
      - Muzza 14y ago
        What is your point? Do you think I'm somehow ignorant of what the EU means? I know about the free movement of people - I reject it since it has negative consequences for me! For some reason you are unwilling to come right out and simply say what you think about IKEA, thus leaving me to read your mind. Presumably your argument goes something like this: "Ingvar Kamprad is Swedish, Ingvar Kamprad used forced labor in the GDR, therefore all Swedish people must pay for these sins by putting up with foreign beggars on their streets".
- gioele 14y ago
  Have you a problem with Bulgarian people or Bulgarian criminals? If you have a problem with Bulgarian people in general, then, well, that is called xenophobia or more simply racism. If you have a problem with Bulgarian criminals, then complain to your police force. How come you able to spot such criminals so easily while they cannot? Did you make precise and detailed reports to the police about cases you witnessed, experienced personally or know from local hearsay? Talking about apartments, do you agree on the principle that access to public housing should be given to those most in need? Do you also agree on the principle that the needs for every lawful person should be addressed regardless of their country of origin? If you do, what is the problem them? If you do not, why? Question for the US readers: do scenes like those depicted in Steinbeck's novel The grapes of wrath still happen? Are people from rural zones like Oklahoma's countryside treated as filthy dangerous foreigners in California? Because that is what we are seeing and experiencing right now in the EU.
  - Muzza 14y ago
    > Have you a problem with Bulgarian people or Bulgarian criminals? > If you have a problem with Bulgarian people in general, then, well, that is called xenophobia or more simply racism. Presumably you are Bulgarian and I have offended you by not being nice to those compatriots of you who are begging on my streets. I am actually kind of sad for that, because I'm sure you and I could in fact get along quite beautifully. But the fact still remains: when I go out, I don't wish to be accosted by beggars. This is human nature. > If you have a problem with Bulgarian criminals, then complain to your police force. How come you able to spot such criminals so easily while they cannot? Did you make precise and detailed reports to the police about cases you witnessed, experienced personally or know from local hearsay? My bloody point was that vagrancy SHOULD be a crime. It ISN'T at present. (Also, the police are corrupt and willing to overlook crime when it suits them.) > Do you also agree on the principle that the needs for every lawful person should be addressed regardless of their country of origin? Certainly not. I find it totally absurd that if I (a Swedish citizen who's paid a lot of tax to the Swedish state) were to wind up on the streets, the Swedish state could quite possibly refuse me even a bed at a homeless shelter, at the same as a foreigner should be given his or her own apartment, no questions asked. This is not just. It's borderline evil.
- twelvechairs 14y ago
  Downvoting because its ridiculous to compare the situation in Sweden with that of Thailand (the difference is immense), because it engages in leftist bashing (I'm sure there must be very few 'leftists' if any who really say "lets build new apartments for foreign criminals whilst Swedes get nothing", although this is exactly what you imply they say), and because you claim to answer a complex and nuanced issue with a single sweeping generalisation.
  - v0cab 14y ago
    His comment was relevant to the discussion, and was a relevant comment reply (talking about organised gangs using begging to further their goals). I'm guessing you just want to shut out views that are at all critical of immigration, or even just seem to be. You want to shut down that discussion entirely. I'd downvote you, but that button doesn't appear for me.
    - twelvechairs 14y ago
      Sorry, but I feel like you are putting words into my mouth here. I downvoted for the specific reasons mentioned, none of which were about my views on immigration (which you might be surprised to know are not one-sided at all). I'd also be happy to have a discussion about immigration, but at most it is a side issue in this thread and the above post. I don't want to get into an argument here, but its hard not to refute the views you seem to be imposing on me.
      - v0cab 14y ago
        I apologise if I have misrepresented you. You are right, I do not know what your views are.
  - pasbesoin 14y ago
    > organized gangs of beggars I'd say that that part is similar, and it is not something I was aware of. So, I find this informative and contributing to the discussion. Some of the other language might be viewed as a bit slanted. Or it might be viewed as a bit ironic. Given that uncertainty, I didn't find it too extreme. (Although, I am in the U.S. and so separated from the particular circumstance, and my judgment/opinion is of limited value.) P.S. I should add that I have not yet read all the ensuing responses, which I am now getting to and which might change my opinion somewhat. But, based just on the original comment, I think the above applies to it. P.P.S. HN is getting way too political. Reading through this thread reinforces this impression. Makes me sorry to have commented on it. OTOH, I rather liked the description of RMS's approach, and I found it informative to read comments on the "industry" behind some of the world's begging. (To which begging, like many other commentors here, I have a hard time formulating a coherent response that I find helpful, practical, and coherent.)
- Panoramix 14y ago
  The situation is not similar in Sweden. In fact, from the entire planet, Sweden is one of most dissimilar places.
- fogol 14y ago
  I fail to see how the gypsy beggars are the problem and not your legislation or enforcement. If hostile begging is an issue, legislate it out of the streets. Pass a law that would criminalise it once you've been caught three times. Instead of complaining, you better appeal to your fellow citizens and solve it
  - v0cab 14y ago
    > I fail to see how the gypsy beggars are the problem and not your legislation or enforcement. If hostile begging is an issue, legislate it out of the streets. He did explain why that wasn't being done. > Instead of complaining, you better appeal to your fellow citizens and solve it. Wouldn't that involve some complaining? Anyway, I notice you didn't say that to wilfra. Why doesn't he get accused 'complaining'? Why didn't you try to solve the issues in your post with action instead of with complaining?
- dkersten 14y ago
  We have the same problems in Ireland. There was a documentary recently where they followed some of these people back to their homes in Romania to find that they owned mansions back home - the same people were begging and collecting social welfare here (some were collecting social welfare for children who either weren't even their own or weren't in the country).
deleted 14y ago
[deleted]
neilk 14y ago
It's similar in India, although Indians from the more respectable classes find it just as shocking as a westerner would, and find it hard to believe this happens in their country.
ta12121 14y ago
It's funny, in Dungeons and Dragons, "beggar" is the lowest ranking person in a thieves' guild.

by wilfra 14y ago

Muzza 14y ago

The situation is similar in Sweden, but I have thankfully not heard of anyone disfiguring someone else for these purposes. Yet. One of the glorious benefits of being a member of the EU is that we now have to put up with organized gangs of beggars coming in from Romania, Bulgaria etc harassing us on our streets. (The leftists have proposed that we add these people to our welfare rolls and give them their own apartments - an entitlement not available even to Swedish citizens, mind you. Of course, the only reasonable response is to institute a sufficiently vague law against vagrancy and then deport them.)

Create 14y ago
Exporting organised crime will not solve your problems. Especially regarding the EU. http://www.dw.de/dw/article/0,,15932840,00.html http://www.dw.de/dw/article/0,,15932840,00.html http://www.dw.de/dw/article/0,,15921927,00.html http://www.dw.de/dw/article/0,,15921927,00.html http://www.thelocal.de/national/20120503-42321.html http://www.thelocal.de/national/20120503-42321.html http://www.thelocal.se/31650/20110126/ http://www.thelocal.se/31650/20110126/ http://www.economist.com/node/6919139 http://www.economist.com/node/6919139 ...etc.
- Muzza 14y ago
  I am 100% confident that deporting all foreign beggars in Sweden will solve the problem of foreign beggars in Sweden. I don't really care if this doesn't get to the "bottom of the problem" or whatever. I (or the Swedish people in general) simply cannot be held responsible for the suffering of the entire fucking world. Your links don't make any sense. The DDR used slave labor? Ingvar Kamprad uses various tax avoidance schemes? Did you choose them simply because they are related to Sweden?
  - m__ 14y ago
    What a brilliant "solution": if somebody does something you are not happy with... just deport them!
    - Muzza 14y ago
      Certainly. Foreign criminals are deported all the time.
  - Create 14y ago
    3 Free movement of capital 4 Free movement of services 5 Free movement of people 5.1 Free movement of workers 5.2 Free movement for the non-economically active 5.3 The Schengen Area https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_Freedoms_%28European_Union%29 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_Freedoms_%28European_Unio... I also invite you to read the labels of ie. the plying wooden chairs and crude mugs from which all those world-mesmerising profits arise.
    - Muzza 14y ago
      What is your point? Do you think I'm somehow ignorant of what the EU means? I know about the free movement of people - I reject it since it has negative consequences for me! For some reason you are unwilling to come right out and simply say what you think about IKEA, thus leaving me to read your mind. Presumably your argument goes something like this: "Ingvar Kamprad is Swedish, Ingvar Kamprad used forced labor in the GDR, therefore all Swedish people must pay for these sins by putting up with foreign beggars on their streets".
gioele 14y ago
Have you a problem with Bulgarian people or Bulgarian criminals? If you have a problem with Bulgarian people in general, then, well, that is called xenophobia or more simply racism. If you have a problem with Bulgarian criminals, then complain to your police force. How come you able to spot such criminals so easily while they cannot? Did you make precise and detailed reports to the police about cases you witnessed, experienced personally or know from local hearsay? Talking about apartments, do you agree on the principle that access to public housing should be given to those most in need? Do you also agree on the principle that the needs for every lawful person should be addressed regardless of their country of origin? If you do, what is the problem them? If you do not, why? Question for the US readers: do scenes like those depicted in Steinbeck's novel The grapes of wrath still happen? Are people from rural zones like Oklahoma's countryside treated as filthy dangerous foreigners in California? Because that is what we are seeing and experiencing right now in the EU.
- Muzza 14y ago
  > Have you a problem with Bulgarian people or Bulgarian criminals? > If you have a problem with Bulgarian people in general, then, well, that is called xenophobia or more simply racism. Presumably you are Bulgarian and I have offended you by not being nice to those compatriots of you who are begging on my streets. I am actually kind of sad for that, because I'm sure you and I could in fact get along quite beautifully. But the fact still remains: when I go out, I don't wish to be accosted by beggars. This is human nature. > If you have a problem with Bulgarian criminals, then complain to your police force. How come you able to spot such criminals so easily while they cannot? Did you make precise and detailed reports to the police about cases you witnessed, experienced personally or know from local hearsay? My bloody point was that vagrancy SHOULD be a crime. It ISN'T at present. (Also, the police are corrupt and willing to overlook crime when it suits them.) > Do you also agree on the principle that the needs for every lawful person should be addressed regardless of their country of origin? Certainly not. I find it totally absurd that if I (a Swedish citizen who's paid a lot of tax to the Swedish state) were to wind up on the streets, the Swedish state could quite possibly refuse me even a bed at a homeless shelter, at the same as a foreigner should be given his or her own apartment, no questions asked. This is not just. It's borderline evil.
twelvechairs 14y ago
Downvoting because its ridiculous to compare the situation in Sweden with that of Thailand (the difference is immense), because it engages in leftist bashing (I'm sure there must be very few 'leftists' if any who really say "lets build new apartments for foreign criminals whilst Swedes get nothing", although this is exactly what you imply they say), and because you claim to answer a complex and nuanced issue with a single sweeping generalisation.
- v0cab 14y ago
  His comment was relevant to the discussion, and was a relevant comment reply (talking about organised gangs using begging to further their goals). I'm guessing you just want to shut out views that are at all critical of immigration, or even just seem to be. You want to shut down that discussion entirely. I'd downvote you, but that button doesn't appear for me.
  - twelvechairs 14y ago
    Sorry, but I feel like you are putting words into my mouth here. I downvoted for the specific reasons mentioned, none of which were about my views on immigration (which you might be surprised to know are not one-sided at all). I'd also be happy to have a discussion about immigration, but at most it is a side issue in this thread and the above post. I don't want to get into an argument here, but its hard not to refute the views you seem to be imposing on me.
    - v0cab 14y ago
      I apologise if I have misrepresented you. You are right, I do not know what your views are.
- pasbesoin 14y ago
  > organized gangs of beggars I'd say that that part is similar, and it is not something I was aware of. So, I find this informative and contributing to the discussion. Some of the other language might be viewed as a bit slanted. Or it might be viewed as a bit ironic. Given that uncertainty, I didn't find it too extreme. (Although, I am in the U.S. and so separated from the particular circumstance, and my judgment/opinion is of limited value.) P.S. I should add that I have not yet read all the ensuing responses, which I am now getting to and which might change my opinion somewhat. But, based just on the original comment, I think the above applies to it. P.P.S. HN is getting way too political. Reading through this thread reinforces this impression. Makes me sorry to have commented on it. OTOH, I rather liked the description of RMS's approach, and I found it informative to read comments on the "industry" behind some of the world's begging. (To which begging, like many other commentors here, I have a hard time formulating a coherent response that I find helpful, practical, and coherent.)
Panoramix 14y ago
The situation is not similar in Sweden. In fact, from the entire planet, Sweden is one of most dissimilar places.
fogol 14y ago
I fail to see how the gypsy beggars are the problem and not your legislation or enforcement. If hostile begging is an issue, legislate it out of the streets. Pass a law that would criminalise it once you've been caught three times. Instead of complaining, you better appeal to your fellow citizens and solve it
- v0cab 14y ago
  > I fail to see how the gypsy beggars are the problem and not your legislation or enforcement. If hostile begging is an issue, legislate it out of the streets. He did explain why that wasn't being done. > Instead of complaining, you better appeal to your fellow citizens and solve it. Wouldn't that involve some complaining? Anyway, I notice you didn't say that to wilfra. Why doesn't he get accused 'complaining'? Why didn't you try to solve the issues in your post with action instead of with complaining?
dkersten 14y ago
We have the same problems in Ireland. There was a documentary recently where they followed some of these people back to their homes in Romania to find that they owned mansions back home - the same people were begging and collecting social welfare here (some were collecting social welfare for children who either weren't even their own or weren't in the country).

deleted 14y ago

[deleted]

neilk 14y ago

It's similar in India, although Indians from the more respectable classes find it just as shocking as a westerner would, and find it hard to believe this happens in their country.

ta12121 14y ago

It's funny, in Dungeons and Dragons, "beggar" is the lowest ranking person in a thieves' guild.