21 ms·

Looking at the flag colours I cannot but think that Sweden is paving the way for Ukraine's membership.

by iam-TJ 3y ago

tharmas 3y ago
[flagged]
- dralley 3y ago
  And here I was thinking that "arrogant" was expecting a neighboring country, whose nation, identity and language you claim "aren't real", whose people you call "little Russians", would fall at your feet within days. And flagrantly violating every agreement that has ever been made w/r/t Ukraine. And killing political opposition with impunity. And giving medals to every soldier in the units stationed in Bucha a few days after of the massacres were uncovered. And "annexing" regions of Ukraine where your soldiers haven't even reached, and putting them on official maps of Russia. And using chemical and radiological weapons to conduct assassinations on UK soil. And blowing up Czech ammo depots. And telling the world that if there were any Russian soldiers amongst the "little green men" in Crimea, they were merely on vacation. And this trash: https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-60562240 https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-60562240.
- avtolik 3y ago
  If the people of Ukraine want to get in NATO for protection, how is this the West being arrogant?
  - tharmas 3y ago
    Study great power politics and you will understand what I mean. Russia is a nuclear power. That means no matter how much you dislike them for whatever reasons you don't go giving them the finger. That's like giving the Mafia boss the finger when he has a gun pointed at your head. You might think that's brave defiance but inarguably that will get you killed. Study the outrage in the USA when Russia put nuclear missiles in Cuba, when Cuba, a sovereign country asked for those missiles (aka The Cuban Missile Crisis). Substitute Cuba for Ukraine and USA for Russia and you will be begin to understand the Russian point of view. But hey the West is Right, We are the Good Guys, always on the side of Freedom and Democracy so we can't be wrong. Just ask the Palestinians in Gaza.
    - CogitoCogito 3y ago
      Ukraine hasn't even been formally offered membership in NATO. They've never had any realistic prospect to join. Russia invaded Ukraine without provocation. Stop pretending otherwise.
    - ProjectArcturis 3y ago
      I'm sure if we just kneel down and give Putin what he wants, he'll stop with eastern Ukraine.
    - hackerlight 3y ago
      > That means no matter how much you dislike them for whatever reasons you don't go giving them the finger. You haven't considered the consequences of folding to nuclear blackmail. That increases the chances bad actors will use nuclear blackmail again (because you've shown it works), and it increases nuclear proliferation because small states start feeling unsafe if larger states refuse to help them defend themselves out of fear.
- lawn 3y ago
  How many times has Putin tried to shake the nuke stick? He has threatened Sweden directly with nukes if we ever tried to join Nato for instance. And even then, Putin has no limits. We cannot continue to put red lines and limits on ourselves when the opponent doesn't have any.
- overstay8930 3y ago
  The west is arrogant because everyone else is trying to bring back feudalism lol There's a reason non-western aligned countries are a bunch of corrupt shitholes, they want more serfs to do their bidding and the west is showing their population what their life could be and ruining their plans.
- maximilianburke 3y ago
  How is the west being arrogant if the new member states want to join? It's not the west who invaded Georgia in 2008 or Crimea in 2014. It's not the west that invaded Ukraine in 2022. Countries bordering Russia have, for decades, known the threat that Russian imperialism is to them and it's their choice to protect themselves from an extremely aggressive, brutal neighbour.
  - KingOfCoders 3y ago
    Never understood people who believe the narrative of an expanding NATO. The baltics, Poland and other Eastern countries want to join NATO because they have been invaded several times by Russia, women raped, cities plundered, people tortured and killed. That is the reason those countries want to join NATO.
- troupo 3y ago
  Russia: signed the memorandum guaranteeing Ukraine's borders, sovereignty and independence. Also Russia: "NATO pinky promised in a discussion between two people no one remembers that it wouldn't expand East, so we're invading Ukraine and threatening you with nuclear war"
  - tharmas 3y ago
    They signed when they were weak. That's Great Power Politics. The USA was sole Hegemon. It could do whatever it wanted. The West continued to provoke Russia because the West knew Russia was too weak to do anything about it. The West's arrogance was in underestimating how Russia would react as they continued to provoke them. (By "provoke" I mean doing things that the West knew that the Russians wouldn't like). The neocons in Washington were quite happy to see Russia invade Ukraine. They thought it was Afghanistan 2.0 (Soviet invasion, I'm referring too). The neocons thought they could bleed Russia dry using Ukraine as a proxy to bring down the Putin regime. A huge miscalculation. Now Russia and China a friends. In Great Power Politics that is a huge blunder. Why do you think Nixon, a staunch anti-communist, would do a deal with China? Answer is: Great Power Politics.
    - ProjectArcturis 3y ago
      From a purely realpolitik standpoint, this war is going very well for the US. Russia is bogged down in a stalemate, with 100,000 soldiers dead already. (vs 10,000 over 10 years in Afghanistan). They've destroyed the idea that Russia is the second-strongest army in the world. NATO is now stronger and larger than ever, and haven't taken a single casualty. My heart goes out to the Ukrainians, who are fighting determinedly not to be liquidated by Putin's mafia state. But the Dick Cheneys of the world couldn't be happier that Putin decided to invade.
KingOfCoders 3y ago
I know Ukraine will not and cannot do this, but writing off it's East and Crimea would enable NATO membership and EU ascension.
- pclmulqdq 3y ago
  All indications suggest that Russia also wants Odessa and the rest of the black sea coastline, which would probably never be acceptable even with NATO membership.
  - miroljub 3y ago
    [flagged]
    - Fatalist_ma 3y ago
      Acoordinto Gallup, October 2023: 31% want Ukraine to negotiate to end the war as soon as possible. https://news.gallup.com/poll/512258/ukrainians-stand-behind-war-effort-despite-fatigue.aspx https://news.gallup.com/poll/512258/ukrainians-stand-behind-... According to NDI(Movember 2023): 42% say that Ukraine should engage in negotiations, but 84% do not find it acceptable to end the war if it means letting Russia have the territory it controls currently. Even if Russia leaves all territory occupied since the 2022 invasion, 73% won't agree to such peace deal, they want pre-2014 borders. https://www.ndi.org/publications/opportunities-and-challenges-facing-ukraine-s-democratic-transition-1 https://www.ndi.org/publications/opportunities-and-challenge... If there are any newer poll results, please share.
      - miroljub 3y ago
        Kyiv's institute of Sociology had a more recent poll and published a Press Release on 21.02.2024 https://kiis.com.ua/?lang=eng&cat=reports&id=1372&page=2 https://kiis.com.ua/?lang=eng&cat=reports&id=1372&page=2 Have a look at the Graph 9 and 10 about their openness to negotiations.
  - tharmas 3y ago
oldpersonintx 3y ago
[dead]

Looking at the flag colours I cannot but think that Sweden is paving the way for Ukraine's membership.

by iam-TJ 3y ago

Looking at the flag colours I cannot but think that Sweden is paving the way for Ukraine's membership.

tharmas 3y ago

[flagged]

dralley 3y ago
And here I was thinking that "arrogant" was expecting a neighboring country, whose nation, identity and language you claim "aren't real", whose people you call "little Russians", would fall at your feet within days. And flagrantly violating every agreement that has ever been made w/r/t Ukraine. And killing political opposition with impunity. And giving medals to every soldier in the units stationed in Bucha a few days after of the massacres were uncovered. And "annexing" regions of Ukraine where your soldiers haven't even reached, and putting them on official maps of Russia. And using chemical and radiological weapons to conduct assassinations on UK soil. And blowing up Czech ammo depots. And telling the world that if there were any Russian soldiers amongst the "little green men" in Crimea, they were merely on vacation. And this trash: https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-60562240 https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-60562240.
avtolik 3y ago
If the people of Ukraine want to get in NATO for protection, how is this the West being arrogant?
- tharmas 3y ago
  Study great power politics and you will understand what I mean. Russia is a nuclear power. That means no matter how much you dislike them for whatever reasons you don't go giving them the finger. That's like giving the Mafia boss the finger when he has a gun pointed at your head. You might think that's brave defiance but inarguably that will get you killed. Study the outrage in the USA when Russia put nuclear missiles in Cuba, when Cuba, a sovereign country asked for those missiles (aka The Cuban Missile Crisis). Substitute Cuba for Ukraine and USA for Russia and you will be begin to understand the Russian point of view. But hey the West is Right, We are the Good Guys, always on the side of Freedom and Democracy so we can't be wrong. Just ask the Palestinians in Gaza.
  - CogitoCogito 3y ago
    Ukraine hasn't even been formally offered membership in NATO. They've never had any realistic prospect to join. Russia invaded Ukraine without provocation. Stop pretending otherwise.
  - ProjectArcturis 3y ago
    I'm sure if we just kneel down and give Putin what he wants, he'll stop with eastern Ukraine.
  - hackerlight 3y ago
    > That means no matter how much you dislike them for whatever reasons you don't go giving them the finger. You haven't considered the consequences of folding to nuclear blackmail. That increases the chances bad actors will use nuclear blackmail again (because you've shown it works), and it increases nuclear proliferation because small states start feeling unsafe if larger states refuse to help them defend themselves out of fear.
lawn 3y ago
How many times has Putin tried to shake the nuke stick? He has threatened Sweden directly with nukes if we ever tried to join Nato for instance. And even then, Putin has no limits. We cannot continue to put red lines and limits on ourselves when the opponent doesn't have any.
overstay8930 3y ago
The west is arrogant because everyone else is trying to bring back feudalism lol There's a reason non-western aligned countries are a bunch of corrupt shitholes, they want more serfs to do their bidding and the west is showing their population what their life could be and ruining their plans.
maximilianburke 3y ago
How is the west being arrogant if the new member states want to join? It's not the west who invaded Georgia in 2008 or Crimea in 2014. It's not the west that invaded Ukraine in 2022. Countries bordering Russia have, for decades, known the threat that Russian imperialism is to them and it's their choice to protect themselves from an extremely aggressive, brutal neighbour.
- KingOfCoders 3y ago
  Never understood people who believe the narrative of an expanding NATO. The baltics, Poland and other Eastern countries want to join NATO because they have been invaded several times by Russia, women raped, cities plundered, people tortured and killed. That is the reason those countries want to join NATO.
troupo 3y ago
Russia: signed the memorandum guaranteeing Ukraine's borders, sovereignty and independence. Also Russia: "NATO pinky promised in a discussion between two people no one remembers that it wouldn't expand East, so we're invading Ukraine and threatening you with nuclear war"
- tharmas 3y ago
  They signed when they were weak. That's Great Power Politics. The USA was sole Hegemon. It could do whatever it wanted. The West continued to provoke Russia because the West knew Russia was too weak to do anything about it. The West's arrogance was in underestimating how Russia would react as they continued to provoke them. (By "provoke" I mean doing things that the West knew that the Russians wouldn't like). The neocons in Washington were quite happy to see Russia invade Ukraine. They thought it was Afghanistan 2.0 (Soviet invasion, I'm referring too). The neocons thought they could bleed Russia dry using Ukraine as a proxy to bring down the Putin regime. A huge miscalculation. Now Russia and China a friends. In Great Power Politics that is a huge blunder. Why do you think Nixon, a staunch anti-communist, would do a deal with China? Answer is: Great Power Politics.
  - ProjectArcturis 3y ago
    From a purely realpolitik standpoint, this war is going very well for the US. Russia is bogged down in a stalemate, with 100,000 soldiers dead already. (vs 10,000 over 10 years in Afghanistan). They've destroyed the idea that Russia is the second-strongest army in the world. NATO is now stronger and larger than ever, and haven't taken a single casualty. My heart goes out to the Ukrainians, who are fighting determinedly not to be liquidated by Putin's mafia state. But the Dick Cheneys of the world couldn't be happier that Putin decided to invade.

KingOfCoders 3y ago

I know Ukraine will not and cannot do this, but writing off it's East and Crimea would enable NATO membership and EU ascension.

pclmulqdq 3y ago
All indications suggest that Russia also wants Odessa and the rest of the black sea coastline, which would probably never be acceptable even with NATO membership.
- miroljub 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - Fatalist_ma 3y ago
    Acoordinto Gallup, October 2023: 31% want Ukraine to negotiate to end the war as soon as possible. https://news.gallup.com/poll/512258/ukrainians-stand-behind-war-effort-despite-fatigue.aspx https://news.gallup.com/poll/512258/ukrainians-stand-behind-... According to NDI(Movember 2023): 42% say that Ukraine should engage in negotiations, but 84% do not find it acceptable to end the war if it means letting Russia have the territory it controls currently. Even if Russia leaves all territory occupied since the 2022 invasion, 73% won't agree to such peace deal, they want pre-2014 borders. https://www.ndi.org/publications/opportunities-and-challenges-facing-ukraine-s-democratic-transition-1 https://www.ndi.org/publications/opportunities-and-challenge... If there are any newer poll results, please share.
    - miroljub 3y ago
      Kyiv's institute of Sociology had a more recent poll and published a Press Release on 21.02.2024 https://kiis.com.ua/?lang=eng&cat=reports&id=1372&page=2 https://kiis.com.ua/?lang=eng&cat=reports&id=1372&page=2 Have a look at the Graph 9 and 10 about their openness to negotiations.
- tharmas 3y ago

oldpersonintx 3y ago

[dead]