4 ms·

It is a really bad idea to make soldiers do police work. They were not recruited with the kind of mental stability in mind that you need to deal with all the B

It is a really bad idea to make soldiers do police work. They were not recruited with the kind of mental stability in mind that you need to deal with all the BS cops need to deal with.

bhpm 3y ago
The optics are also really, really bad. I recall putting my bags through a scanner and walking through a metal detector when I visited Beijing in 2018. My first thought was “wow, must suck to live in a police state like this, can’t even take transit without being searched.”
- galuggus 3y ago
  the optics maybe be bad but violent crime is extremely low. I've never felt fear of being mugged or attacked in China.
  - para_parolu 3y ago
    The more totalitarian country is the more government protects monopoly on violence.
  - bhpm 3y ago
    Your perception of your own personal safety is not an objective measure of crime and should not form the basis of a policing strategy. https://apnews.com/article/trump-bragg-new-york-manhattan-nypd-4c0cb6ef067b2e3f2358ec9542c900cd https://apnews.com/article/trump-bragg-new-york-manhattan-ny... “crime across the five boroughs is nowhere near the levels seen in the 1990s, and while there was a rise in 2022, those figures are already trending down this year.”
    - rahimnathwani 3y ago
      Your perception of your own personal safety is not an objective measure of crime FTFY Reported crime is not an objective measure of crime and should not form the basis of a policing strategy. When police cease to act on reports of crime, people have no incentive to report crime (except for major property crime which might be covered by insurance, and things like murder). This is why we can't trust the crime stats where I live (San Francisco).
      - bhpm 3y ago
        Your response is logically inconsistent. >Reported crime [...] should not form the basis of a policing strategy. and: >When police cease to act on reports of crime, people have no incentive to report crime. Logically, then, reported crime should form the basis of a policing strategy, since it creates an incentive to report crime.
        rahimnathwani 3y ago
        No. You're ignoring the time dimension. Past policing strategy means that current crime stats are unreliable. These current crime stats should therefore not form the basis of a future policing strategy. If we're optimizing for getting results today, policing strategy should not rely on the flawed crime stats we have today. If we're optimizing for the long term, then sure rely on crime stats, but first make it easy to report crime.
        bhpm 3y ago
        If it's so difficult to report crimes, wouldn't that mean that the crimes that are reported represent the most egregious, since the people who reported them overcame the difficulty in reporting to report the crimes? And, therefore, current policing strategy should -- indeed -- focus on the reported crimes while making it easier to report them?
        rahimnathwani 3y ago
        You have it backwards. The current policing strategy is the cause of the reported crimes mix. People will report crimes that: - they think the police will do something about, and/or - they need to report in order to file an insurance claim If your car window gets smashed and you're not going to report it to your insurer lest it raises your premium next year, and if you know the police aren't going to investigate, why would you report it?
xhkkffbf 3y ago
And if the past is any indication, they'll be deployed without any ammunition. To avoid people bringing some spare bullets, they also remove the bolts from the rifles. It's a good safety precaution, but I wonder what will happen if the violent criminals discover this.
- rightbyte 3y ago
  Well ok that is good at least the commanders share my risk assessment. I don't think criminals will try to steal rifles from the guardsmen. The officers might wield pistols too.
jghn 3y ago
> They were not recruited with the kind of mental stability in mind that you need to deal with all the BS cops need to deal with I honestly can't tell if this is meant to be serious or in jest. I agree with the sentiment, but the reality is neither are cops.
- bashinator 3y ago
  It can't be serious. Soldiers have far stricter rules of engagement than police in the U.S., with significantly more penalties for violations.
- rightbyte 3y ago
  I am serious. Ye, well, I'd argue the type of person that really can't "take shit" wont survive very long as a cop. Either litteraly or by being fired. Among soldiers that type is way more common as they are not being filtered out since they are not exposed to it. (The NCO:s being mean in boot camp is not the same thing since the soldier is a subordinate.)
  - bashinator 3y ago
    I would estimate that U.S. soldiers, are enormously more disciplined on average than U.S. police. More training, stricter rules of engagement, more significant and immediate consequences for violating those rules, better discipline, tighter command structure. There's no comparison whatsoever.
  - nickff 3y ago
    Are you speaking from experience in both services or based on media portrayals? I ask because your take does not accord with my (non-experiential) understanding.
    - rightbyte 3y ago
      I've been a NCO, infantry. Not in the US though, so my claim (i.e. cops are way better at handling civilians than soldiers due to fewer "bad apples") might be inaccurate if there is a big difference. My main point is that people seem to severely underestimate what the police deal with. I would not think that soldiers as a group would cause more problem than say Walmart clerks (lets pretend they would get proper training) if given weapons and power to patrol subways. I've made this argument a lot of times with friends. I hyperbolically claim that the average police is a better person than a Walmart clerk, and I got a lot of shit each time. There is this saying that "power corrupts" but I rather believe that "power gives the ability to show that you are corrupt". Among Walmart clerks there are probably people that really really can't "take shit" that would never pass basic training of soldiers due to anger management issues. So like, the claim could probably be 'cops > soldiers > Walmart clerks' in handling civilians without bad outcomes.
mmh0000 3y ago
"There's a reason you separate military and the police. One fights the enemies of the state, the other serves and protects the people. When the military becomes both, then the enemies of the state tend to become the people." — Commander William Adama
- jghn 3y ago
  We've crossed that particular bridge a long time ago. The police are effectively a paramilitary force at this point.
rainbowzootsuit 3y ago
These are national guard, not full time military. One weekend a month, two weeks a year. Citizen soldier. I would guess, on average, that they're more mentally stable than, on average, police considering that many go into national guard service to fund their college aspirations.

It is a really bad idea to make soldiers do police work. They were not recruited with the kind of mental stability in mind that you need to deal with all the BS cops need to deal with.

bhpm 3y ago

The optics are also really, really bad. I recall putting my bags through a scanner and walking through a metal detector when I visited Beijing in 2018. My first thought was “wow, must suck to live in a police state like this, can’t even take transit without being searched.”

galuggus 3y ago
the optics maybe be bad but violent crime is extremely low. I've never felt fear of being mugged or attacked in China.
- para_parolu 3y ago
  The more totalitarian country is the more government protects monopoly on violence.
- bhpm 3y ago
  Your perception of your own personal safety is not an objective measure of crime and should not form the basis of a policing strategy. https://apnews.com/article/trump-bragg-new-york-manhattan-nypd-4c0cb6ef067b2e3f2358ec9542c900cd https://apnews.com/article/trump-bragg-new-york-manhattan-ny... “crime across the five boroughs is nowhere near the levels seen in the 1990s, and while there was a rise in 2022, those figures are already trending down this year.”
  - rahimnathwani 3y ago
    Your perception of your own personal safety is not an objective measure of crime FTFY Reported crime is not an objective measure of crime and should not form the basis of a policing strategy. When police cease to act on reports of crime, people have no incentive to report crime (except for major property crime which might be covered by insurance, and things like murder). This is why we can't trust the crime stats where I live (San Francisco).
    - bhpm 3y ago
      Your response is logically inconsistent. >Reported crime [...] should not form the basis of a policing strategy. and: >When police cease to act on reports of crime, people have no incentive to report crime. Logically, then, reported crime should form the basis of a policing strategy, since it creates an incentive to report crime.
      - rahimnathwani 3y ago
        No. You're ignoring the time dimension. Past policing strategy means that current crime stats are unreliable. These current crime stats should therefore not form the basis of a future policing strategy. If we're optimizing for getting results today, policing strategy should not rely on the flawed crime stats we have today. If we're optimizing for the long term, then sure rely on crime stats, but first make it easy to report crime.
        bhpm 3y ago
        If it's so difficult to report crimes, wouldn't that mean that the crimes that are reported represent the most egregious, since the people who reported them overcame the difficulty in reporting to report the crimes? And, therefore, current policing strategy should -- indeed -- focus on the reported crimes while making it easier to report them?
        rahimnathwani 3y ago
        You have it backwards. The current policing strategy is the cause of the reported crimes mix. People will report crimes that: - they think the police will do something about, and/or - they need to report in order to file an insurance claim If your car window gets smashed and you're not going to report it to your insurer lest it raises your premium next year, and if you know the police aren't going to investigate, why would you report it?

xhkkffbf 3y ago

And if the past is any indication, they'll be deployed without any ammunition. To avoid people bringing some spare bullets, they also remove the bolts from the rifles. It's a good safety precaution, but I wonder what will happen if the violent criminals discover this.

rightbyte 3y ago
Well ok that is good at least the commanders share my risk assessment. I don't think criminals will try to steal rifles from the guardsmen. The officers might wield pistols too.

jghn 3y ago

> They were not recruited with the kind of mental stability in mind that you need to deal with all the BS cops need to deal with I honestly can't tell if this is meant to be serious or in jest. I agree with the sentiment, but the reality is neither are cops.

bashinator 3y ago
It can't be serious. Soldiers have far stricter rules of engagement than police in the U.S., with significantly more penalties for violations.
rightbyte 3y ago
I am serious. Ye, well, I'd argue the type of person that really can't "take shit" wont survive very long as a cop. Either litteraly or by being fired. Among soldiers that type is way more common as they are not being filtered out since they are not exposed to it. (The NCO:s being mean in boot camp is not the same thing since the soldier is a subordinate.)
- bashinator 3y ago
  I would estimate that U.S. soldiers, are enormously more disciplined on average than U.S. police. More training, stricter rules of engagement, more significant and immediate consequences for violating those rules, better discipline, tighter command structure. There's no comparison whatsoever.
- nickff 3y ago
  Are you speaking from experience in both services or based on media portrayals? I ask because your take does not accord with my (non-experiential) understanding.
  - rightbyte 3y ago
    I've been a NCO, infantry. Not in the US though, so my claim (i.e. cops are way better at handling civilians than soldiers due to fewer "bad apples") might be inaccurate if there is a big difference. My main point is that people seem to severely underestimate what the police deal with. I would not think that soldiers as a group would cause more problem than say Walmart clerks (lets pretend they would get proper training) if given weapons and power to patrol subways. I've made this argument a lot of times with friends. I hyperbolically claim that the average police is a better person than a Walmart clerk, and I got a lot of shit each time. There is this saying that "power corrupts" but I rather believe that "power gives the ability to show that you are corrupt". Among Walmart clerks there are probably people that really really can't "take shit" that would never pass basic training of soldiers due to anger management issues. So like, the claim could probably be 'cops > soldiers > Walmart clerks' in handling civilians without bad outcomes.

mmh0000 3y ago

"There's a reason you separate military and the police. One fights the enemies of the state, the other serves and protects the people. When the military becomes both, then the enemies of the state tend to become the people." — Commander William Adama

jghn 3y ago
We've crossed that particular bridge a long time ago. The police are effectively a paramilitary force at this point.

rainbowzootsuit 3y ago

These are national guard, not full time military. One weekend a month, two weeks a year. Citizen soldier. I would guess, on average, that they're more mentally stable than, on average, police considering that many go into national guard service to fund their college aspirations.