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Reading this is really awkward. And it's not awkward because it reveals some hidden truth, or because it's a good piece of writing that reflects on the issue i

Reading this is really awkward. And it's not awkward because it reveals some hidden truth, or because it's a good piece of writing that reflects on the issue it's tackling. No, instead it's awkward because the gender dynamics are not reversible. At least, not in the manner that's intended here. You can't just take the circumstances that women face in tech fields, and switch around the pronouns and have the circumstances make sense, because doing so does not swap out the cultural contexts which reside in the reader's head (which is one of the critical points in the veil of ignorance thought experiment: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veil_of_ignorance http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veil_of_ignorance ). There are female dominated fields in which men are rare (nursing and dietetics to name two) and encounter all sort of social awkwardness due to being the minority. But the sorts of circumstances that guys face, while there are some correlations, are not analogous problems to the problems that women face in fields in which they are the minority. The oft cited thing keeping men out of nursing and dietetics are cultural things like the work not being "manly" enough, as opposed to facing sexual harassment and pejorative or demeaning behavior.

xyzzyz 14y ago
Of course the story described in the post have zero chance of happening in the real world, but that's the whole point, I guess.
- antonb2011 14y ago
  That's what you think. A good friend of mine is 6'2 and used to be a part time male fitness model. He's a software engineer at a large bank and all the girls hit on him and never believe him when he says he's a software engineer.
dsrguru 14y ago
The article reads so awkwardly because that's exactly the author's point. Unless I completely misread the article, the author is trying to convey to the male reader that the issues female programmers face aren't made up by far leftist feminazis, but rather are very real and very difficult for a man to relate to.
robconery 14y ago
You're being a tad too literal with your critique (if I may). The whole point is to take you into a realm that's utterly absurd from the male perspective -- which is entirely my point in writing this. Yes, male nurses face weird moments in life - but as you say it's mostly from other men. That has nothing to do with being a woman in the tech industry who get to listen to cracks about "being on the rag" or PMSing when they're aggressive. Next time you're with a female coworker, notice how often you and the other men in the group look at her chest. Notice how often she ignores this and how completely oblivious the other men are that she's overlooking their behavior. If you don't believe me - and if you know this woman well enough - ask her. You'd be surprised the shit women deal with.
- tomp 14y ago
  > You'd be surprised the shit women deal with. I'm not sure, but I think you're being too general. I'd rather state this: You'd be surprised by the shit *attractive* women have to deal with. And I 'm pretty sure that attractive men have to deal with the same kind of "shit". They just react to it differently. Edit: I expected the downvotes, but please reply, do you disagree with the stated facts (i.e. does you experience differ from mine), or with the manner they were stated in?
  - TheSOB88 14y ago
    Attractive men DON'T have to deal with the same kind of shit, in general, because they are not a minority. They are not in a minority with social precedents to keep them down, which is what this article is all about. Institutionalized sexualization of women through teasing and joking is pretty common. This piece is trying to get you to where you try to understand what it's like. Most of us have wondered if our bulge was big enough - imagine if it was judged daily, by every oncoming woman, in every meeting. Imagine if you were constantly teased about getting a boner, and people acted as if it were normal. I imagine some people around here aren't very good at imagining, are too literal, and hence react badly to this sort of thing.
    - JanezStupar 14y ago
bjornsing 14y ago
I think the writer actually made a pretty good job of "reversing the gender dynamics". I especially like the retrospect into young adulthood. Sure made it easier for me to understand the seriousness of what you call social awkwardness. Stuff that puts us off in adulthood is often grounded far back, and the exact same concrete circumstances may not affect somebody who doesn't have that background. If the last paragraph of your comment is your attempt at "reversing the gender dynamics" I think you have it all backwards, reversing the wrong thing. You could write another essay in the OP's style about what it's like being a female in the "macho man" dominated nursing profession. Makes sense to me.
petercooper 14y ago
But the sorts of circumstances that guys face, while there are some correlations, are not analogous problems to the problems that women face in fields in which they are the minority. The oft cited thing keeping men out of nursing and dietetics are cultural things like the work not being "manly" enough Not adding anything other than a data point here. My wife used to be a nurse for deafblind teenagers. She prefers male company so was friends with the few men there. I used to ask her about this topic, and while the men weren't being sexually harassed, there was more to it than the above. The key things the men seemed to face was social exclusion (that is, women are engaged in "women talk" or women are socializing together outside of work and not including the men) and regulatory sexism (male attendees weren't allowed to bathe female residents or attend to any of their hygiene needs). I thought this was pretty interesting because while it didn't seem like they had that bad a time, the social exclusion and the 'like sticking with like' aspects do ring true to what I've heard from women in the tech industry. That is.. even if the men aren't overtly harassing the women, there's an element of 'boys stick together and do boy things' which the women at my wife's workplace also fostered. No judgments or anything here, just a datapoint! :)

xyzzyz 14y ago

Of course the story described in the post have zero chance of happening in the real world, but that's the whole point, I guess.

antonb2011 14y ago
That's what you think. A good friend of mine is 6'2 and used to be a part time male fitness model. He's a software engineer at a large bank and all the girls hit on him and never believe him when he says he's a software engineer.

dsrguru 14y ago

The article reads so awkwardly because that's exactly the author's point. Unless I completely misread the article, the author is trying to convey to the male reader that the issues female programmers face aren't made up by far leftist feminazis, but rather are very real and very difficult for a man to relate to.

robconery 14y ago

You're being a tad too literal with your critique (if I may). The whole point is to take you into a realm that's utterly absurd from the male perspective -- which is entirely my point in writing this. Yes, male nurses face weird moments in life - but as you say it's mostly from other men. That has nothing to do with being a woman in the tech industry who get to listen to cracks about "being on the rag" or PMSing when they're aggressive. Next time you're with a female coworker, notice how often you and the other men in the group look at her chest. Notice how often she ignores this and how completely oblivious the other men are that she's overlooking their behavior. If you don't believe me - and if you know this woman well enough - ask her. You'd be surprised the shit women deal with.

tomp 14y ago
> You'd be surprised the shit women deal with. I'm not sure, but I think you're being too general. I'd rather state this: You'd be surprised by the shit *attractive* women have to deal with. And I 'm pretty sure that attractive men have to deal with the same kind of "shit". They just react to it differently. Edit: I expected the downvotes, but please reply, do you disagree with the stated facts (i.e. does you experience differ from mine), or with the manner they were stated in?
- TheSOB88 14y ago
  Attractive men DON'T have to deal with the same kind of shit, in general, because they are not a minority. They are not in a minority with social precedents to keep them down, which is what this article is all about. Institutionalized sexualization of women through teasing and joking is pretty common. This piece is trying to get you to where you try to understand what it's like. Most of us have wondered if our bulge was big enough - imagine if it was judged daily, by every oncoming woman, in every meeting. Imagine if you were constantly teased about getting a boner, and people acted as if it were normal. I imagine some people around here aren't very good at imagining, are too literal, and hence react badly to this sort of thing.
  - JanezStupar 14y ago

bjornsing 14y ago

I think the writer actually made a pretty good job of "reversing the gender dynamics". I especially like the retrospect into young adulthood. Sure made it easier for me to understand the seriousness of what you call social awkwardness. Stuff that puts us off in adulthood is often grounded far back, and the exact same concrete circumstances may not affect somebody who doesn't have that background. If the last paragraph of your comment is your attempt at "reversing the gender dynamics" I think you have it all backwards, reversing the wrong thing. You could write another essay in the OP's style about what it's like being a female in the "macho man" dominated nursing profession. Makes sense to me.

petercooper 14y ago

But the sorts of circumstances that guys face, while there are some correlations, are not analogous problems to the problems that women face in fields in which they are the minority. The oft cited thing keeping men out of nursing and dietetics are cultural things like the work not being "manly" enough Not adding anything other than a data point here. My wife used to be a nurse for deafblind teenagers. She prefers male company so was friends with the few men there. I used to ask her about this topic, and while the men weren't being sexually harassed, there was more to it than the above. The key things the men seemed to face was social exclusion (that is, women are engaged in "women talk" or women are socializing together outside of work and not including the men) and regulatory sexism (male attendees weren't allowed to bathe female residents or attend to any of their hygiene needs). I thought this was pretty interesting because while it didn't seem like they had that bad a time, the social exclusion and the 'like sticking with like' aspects do ring true to what I've heard from women in the tech industry. That is.. even if the men aren't overtly harassing the women, there's an element of 'boys stick together and do boy things' which the women at my wife's workplace also fostered. No judgments or anything here, just a datapoint! :)