4 ms·

Thousands of Palestinian hostages? What are you talking about? Please clarify, as I assume you are not talking about prisoners convicted of terror activities.

by bennyz 3y ago

GordonS 3y ago
> convicted of terror activities Yes, such as "throwing stones" at armoured vehicles - truly despicable! Many are held without charge too. And many are held under "administrative detention", which means they can be held in a dungeon, without charge, forever. These are not the actions of a modern, progressive, democratic country. I'm sure that some are imprisoned for good reason, buy many are there for spurious reasons - and none of them should be tortured or subject to sexual abuse, regardless of their supposed crimes.
- bennyz 3y ago
  You are moving the goalposts and reaching. Administrative detention is used on Israelis too, this is not the argument here. Those released in the latest exchange and in the Gilad Shalit exchange were convicted, many of which had innocent blood on their hands. Hamas isn't looking to correct the Israeli justice system, and you are calling actual and attempted murderers hostages...
  - hef19898 3y ago
    Way, way back there was an IDF officer who said, in TV, after having a Palestinian boys arm broken something along the lines of "he wont throw a stone with that arm any time soon". I hope that this is not the standard we hold, because if it is, there is no moral ground anymore to stand on when it comes to denouncing terrorism.
    - bennyz 3y ago
      Police brutality isn't something specific to this region (IDF is policing in the west bank), or to Palestinians in the region. Hamas murdered and kidnapped hundreds of civilians to protest this? I think it's pretty clear that Hamas would prioritize the release of a high ranking terrorist with civilian blood on their hands over someone that may be wrongfully detained.
      - hef19898 3y ago
        Yes, Hamas attacked, killed and kidnapped people in a terror attack to protest this. Also to have hostages to exchange for some of their own. And yes, these "own" are Hamas members and not the innocent bystanders. Was there ever any doubt about this? None of that justifies, again, the levelling of Gaza, the starving of around 500,000 people and the deliberate targeting of civilians who have nothing to do with any of that. You what works? Identifying the purpetrators, prosecuting and convicting them. If you want to go ultra tough, use Mossad to go after Hamas leadership. Heck, even using precision strikes at Hamas leadership in Gaza wouod be better, regardless of the related colleteral damage and casualties. Israel is not doing any of that, Israel started levelling Gaza right south of the border and continue southwards, hoping people flee to Egypt which would allow Israel to close the doors behind them. There is a term for this: ethnic cleansing. That is undefensible, period.
        bennyz 3y ago
        >You what works? Identifying the purpetrators, prosecuting and convicting them. If you want to go ultra tough, use Mossad to go after Hamas leadership. Heck, even using precision strikes at Hamas leadership in Gaza wouod be better, regardless of the related colleteral damage and casualties. Israel is not doing any of that ah, yes, it's that simple, just press the magic button that makes all Hamas disappear and all uninvolved civilians live well and prosper... To me it seems that if those who care about innocent civilians were more focused on demanding Hamas to surrender and release the hostages promptly would be do more to save lives than constantly criticizing Israel, which gives Hamas hope they can survive this (and do what they did again later on)
        hef19898 3y ago
        Right now only one side is doing the blowing things up stuff: Israel. You know what makes, maybe, Hamas go away? Open and free election, a cease fire followed by a peace treaty followed by international recognition of Palestine as a nation with free access to the sea and everything else that entails. With a neutral, demilitarized zone between Israel and Palestine, a zone save guarded by an international force with a very robust mandate. Because by know, both side need to be seperated to avoid future conflict. That would also mean a full review by an international court of all sentences by Israeli military courts against Palestinians, in cases a general amnesty is not applicable. Oh, I almost forgot: A rebuilding plan for Gaza and other Palestinian territories. A massive one, comparable to the Marshall Plan after WW2. A plan in which Israel would have a keen interest in paeticipating if peace is the goal. Oh, yes, and a complete abandonnent of Israels illegal settlement policy and the settlements. In exchange for Israel recognizing all of the above, and international support of that, the new Palestinian nation agrees to recognize Israel as well. How does that sound? Not magic, I know, but something that worked in principle in Northern Ireland for example.
  - GordonS 3y ago
    > Those released in the latest exchange and in the Gilad Shalit exchange were convicted Yes, and the list of crimes was made public. Many of them were indeed "throwing stones". As I said, some are definitely held because of terrible crimes they actually committed; however, it must be noted that Palestinians are tried under an apartheid system, by a military court. Furthermore, it seems that many are held for no good reason, and many are tortured or sexually abused - confirmed by human rights groups. BTW, if a convicted prisoner dies before they complete their sentence, they keep the body on ice until the sentence expires - that is just... evil.
- gryzzly 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - hef19898 3y ago
    Adding up this kind of numbers gets you no where, well, it gets you to a very dark place. In Gaza, it already did...
    - gryzzly 3y ago
      the point here is that stone throwing kills people, it’s not a joke. so the policy of it being illegal and punishable is not a "crushing" or "hate crime" and definitely is not "hostage taking".
      - hef19898 3y ago
        If peopel are properly, as in a proper, fair and unbiased trial, based on equally fair and balanced laws, convicted, sure, you are right. Holding people without charges is defenitely not that. If it were, whatever Russia is doing with people opposing the war Ukraine would totally swell as well. And it isn't. You onw what else kills people, and is illegal by international law? Throwing bombs on civilians. Espesially if said civilians didn't do anything. Restraint is the word and appriach that would allow Israel to project strength and maintain support. What Israel is doing now is a) butthurt and pathetic and b) a despicable disregard of human rights. No amount of stone throwing justifies, or explains, any of that. At best using stome throwing as a justification is excusing conduct that amounts to war crimes. And I hope we can agree those are unacceptable, regardless of whom and which conflict. They happen as it is way too often, if we accept them as justified onxe, we risk opening a door to a place everyone is ok with conducting war in a criminal way. Infor one don't want a world like that, the last time rules of warfare were systematically ignored by everyone, it was incredibly ugly.
        gryzzly 3y ago
        [flagged]
hef19898 3y ago
I think OP osbreferring to the 160 children and over a thousand Palestinians held without charges in Israeli prisons as of April 2022. Just a guess so. Not that it justifies the Hamas attack, but it goes a long way explaining it. Source: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_prisoners_in_Israel https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_prisoners_in_Isr...

Thousands of Palestinian hostages? What are you talking about? Please clarify, as I assume you are not talking about prisoners convicted of terror activities.

by bennyz 3y ago

Thousands of Palestinian hostages? What are you talking about? Please clarify, as I assume you are not talking about prisoners convicted of terror activities.

GordonS 3y ago

> convicted of terror activities Yes, such as "throwing stones" at armoured vehicles - truly despicable! Many are held without charge too. And many are held under "administrative detention", which means they can be held in a dungeon, without charge, forever. These are not the actions of a modern, progressive, democratic country. I'm sure that some are imprisoned for good reason, buy many are there for spurious reasons - and none of them should be tortured or subject to sexual abuse, regardless of their supposed crimes.

bennyz 3y ago
You are moving the goalposts and reaching. Administrative detention is used on Israelis too, this is not the argument here. Those released in the latest exchange and in the Gilad Shalit exchange were convicted, many of which had innocent blood on their hands. Hamas isn't looking to correct the Israeli justice system, and you are calling actual and attempted murderers hostages...
- hef19898 3y ago
  Way, way back there was an IDF officer who said, in TV, after having a Palestinian boys arm broken something along the lines of "he wont throw a stone with that arm any time soon". I hope that this is not the standard we hold, because if it is, there is no moral ground anymore to stand on when it comes to denouncing terrorism.
  - bennyz 3y ago
    Police brutality isn't something specific to this region (IDF is policing in the west bank), or to Palestinians in the region. Hamas murdered and kidnapped hundreds of civilians to protest this? I think it's pretty clear that Hamas would prioritize the release of a high ranking terrorist with civilian blood on their hands over someone that may be wrongfully detained.
    - hef19898 3y ago
      Yes, Hamas attacked, killed and kidnapped people in a terror attack to protest this. Also to have hostages to exchange for some of their own. And yes, these "own" are Hamas members and not the innocent bystanders. Was there ever any doubt about this? None of that justifies, again, the levelling of Gaza, the starving of around 500,000 people and the deliberate targeting of civilians who have nothing to do with any of that. You what works? Identifying the purpetrators, prosecuting and convicting them. If you want to go ultra tough, use Mossad to go after Hamas leadership. Heck, even using precision strikes at Hamas leadership in Gaza wouod be better, regardless of the related colleteral damage and casualties. Israel is not doing any of that, Israel started levelling Gaza right south of the border and continue southwards, hoping people flee to Egypt which would allow Israel to close the doors behind them. There is a term for this: ethnic cleansing. That is undefensible, period.
      - bennyz 3y ago
        >You what works? Identifying the purpetrators, prosecuting and convicting them. If you want to go ultra tough, use Mossad to go after Hamas leadership. Heck, even using precision strikes at Hamas leadership in Gaza wouod be better, regardless of the related colleteral damage and casualties. Israel is not doing any of that ah, yes, it's that simple, just press the magic button that makes all Hamas disappear and all uninvolved civilians live well and prosper... To me it seems that if those who care about innocent civilians were more focused on demanding Hamas to surrender and release the hostages promptly would be do more to save lives than constantly criticizing Israel, which gives Hamas hope they can survive this (and do what they did again later on)
        hef19898 3y ago
        Right now only one side is doing the blowing things up stuff: Israel. You know what makes, maybe, Hamas go away? Open and free election, a cease fire followed by a peace treaty followed by international recognition of Palestine as a nation with free access to the sea and everything else that entails. With a neutral, demilitarized zone between Israel and Palestine, a zone save guarded by an international force with a very robust mandate. Because by know, both side need to be seperated to avoid future conflict. That would also mean a full review by an international court of all sentences by Israeli military courts against Palestinians, in cases a general amnesty is not applicable. Oh, I almost forgot: A rebuilding plan for Gaza and other Palestinian territories. A massive one, comparable to the Marshall Plan after WW2. A plan in which Israel would have a keen interest in paeticipating if peace is the goal. Oh, yes, and a complete abandonnent of Israels illegal settlement policy and the settlements. In exchange for Israel recognizing all of the above, and international support of that, the new Palestinian nation agrees to recognize Israel as well. How does that sound? Not magic, I know, but something that worked in principle in Northern Ireland for example.
- GordonS 3y ago
  > Those released in the latest exchange and in the Gilad Shalit exchange were convicted Yes, and the list of crimes was made public. Many of them were indeed "throwing stones". As I said, some are definitely held because of terrible crimes they actually committed; however, it must be noted that Palestinians are tried under an apartheid system, by a military court. Furthermore, it seems that many are held for no good reason, and many are tortured or sexually abused - confirmed by human rights groups. BTW, if a convicted prisoner dies before they complete their sentence, they keep the body on ice until the sentence expires - that is just... evil.
gryzzly 3y ago
[flagged]
- hef19898 3y ago
  Adding up this kind of numbers gets you no where, well, it gets you to a very dark place. In Gaza, it already did...
  - gryzzly 3y ago
    the point here is that stone throwing kills people, it’s not a joke. so the policy of it being illegal and punishable is not a "crushing" or "hate crime" and definitely is not "hostage taking".
    - hef19898 3y ago
      If peopel are properly, as in a proper, fair and unbiased trial, based on equally fair and balanced laws, convicted, sure, you are right. Holding people without charges is defenitely not that. If it were, whatever Russia is doing with people opposing the war Ukraine would totally swell as well. And it isn't. You onw what else kills people, and is illegal by international law? Throwing bombs on civilians. Espesially if said civilians didn't do anything. Restraint is the word and appriach that would allow Israel to project strength and maintain support. What Israel is doing now is a) butthurt and pathetic and b) a despicable disregard of human rights. No amount of stone throwing justifies, or explains, any of that. At best using stome throwing as a justification is excusing conduct that amounts to war crimes. And I hope we can agree those are unacceptable, regardless of whom and which conflict. They happen as it is way too often, if we accept them as justified onxe, we risk opening a door to a place everyone is ok with conducting war in a criminal way. Infor one don't want a world like that, the last time rules of warfare were systematically ignored by everyone, it was incredibly ugly.
      - gryzzly 3y ago
        [flagged]

hef19898 3y ago

I think OP osbreferring to the 160 children and over a thousand Palestinians held without charges in Israeli prisons as of April 2022. Just a guess so. Not that it justifies the Hamas attack, but it goes a long way explaining it. Source: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_prisoners_in_Israel https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_prisoners_in_Isr...