3 ms·

Yeah, if both parties have declared war against each other, I think it's fair to call it a war. Besides, does it matter what you call it? It's a war for all in

by diggan 3y ago

Yeah, if both parties have declared war against each other, I think it's fair to call it a war. Besides, does it matter what you call it? It's a war for all intents and purposes. Every war/invasion/special military operation is seemingly a "The good guys (me) against the bad guys/terrorists (you)" conflict, and if that's not war, I'm not sure what is.

incognos 3y ago
You cannot declare war on a territory you occupy and control. It is as if the United States declared war on Washington DC or any of their numerous prisons.
- tromp 3y ago
  Israel neither occupied nor controlled the Gaza interior prior to Hamas' attack. They only controlled the border and what goes in and out of Gaza (some cross border tunnels excepted). Within Gaza, Hamas and the Palistinian National Authority ruled.
  - incognos 3y ago
    They did both... They control everything that goes in and out of gaza: I quote from MSNBC "Despite pleas from the United Nations and human rights groups, Israel has maintained a land, air and sea blockade on Gaza since 2007 that has had a devastating effect on Palestinian civilians." How do you rule if you control nothing? all the utilities are controlled by Israel. Travel, nope, controlled by Israel. Exports, nope, controlled by Israel. What are they ruling? Israel created Hamas to weaken the Palestinian Authority - which itself is severely corrupt and complacent. People are seeking a better life. How else do you think Trump got elected? was he the better candidate? (and yes, I did just conflate Trump and Hamas)
    - blurbleblurble 3y ago
      I think it would be appropriate to put Hamas leadership, Trump, Biden and Bibi all in there along with a host of others. They're all produced by the same awful games that reward powerful, reprehensible men, promoting even those with majority disapproval to the top of the chain.
  - GordonS 3y ago
    > They only controlled the border and what goes in and out of Gaza "only" is used here to diminish the suffering of the Gazan people. Israel has had Gaza under a brutal blockade, across air, land and sea. They control everything that enters or leaves, and infamously were so cruel they counted the calories entering Gaza [0] [1]. Israel even claims control of the air over Gaza, and prevents civilians from collecting rainwater [2] [3] [4]. Israel has been enforcing collective punishment for decades - they want that land, and they want it only for themselves. [0] https://www.timesofisrael.com/israel-counted-calorie-requirements-of-gazans-during-land-blockade-to-avoid-crisis/ https://www.timesofisrael.com/israel-counted-calorie-require... [1] https://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/18/world/middleeast/israel-counted-calories-needed-for-gazans-in-blockade.html https://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/18/world/middleeast/israel-c... [2] https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/campaigns/2017/11/the-occupation-of-water/ https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/campaigns/2017/11/the-occu... [3] https://www.haaretz.com/opinion/2016-06-22/ty-article/.premium/israel-unable-to-tell-truth-about-stealing-water-from-palestinians/0000017f-e068-d75c-a7ff-fced125f0000 https://www.haaretz.com/opinion/2016-06-22/ty-article/.premi... [4] https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2014/3/10/debunking-some-myths-about-israels-water-politics https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2014/3/10/debunking-some-...
    - diordiderot 3y ago
      Damn, I didn't know that Israeli troops also controlled Egypt.
      - GordonS 3y ago
        I'm not entirely sure what you mean by that statement, but I guess you're somehow implying it's not US-backed Israel's fault that they prevents legitimate goods (such as crayons, seeds, fishing rods etc) from entering Gaza... because Egypt? Whataboutism aside, it's well known that US-backed Israel is indeed largely in control of what Egypt does and does not do in regard to Gaza.
        diordiderot 3y ago
        It's not whataboutism! If you said the only way to cross the Atlantic was by boat and I said you could fly that's not whataboutism > it's well known that US-backed Israel is indeed largely in control of what Egypt does No it's not. You can't just make stuff up
- wizerdrobe 3y ago
  Would it not be a _civil_ war?
- diggan 3y ago
  Technically I think Israel declared war on Hamas, not Palestine. Similarly, Palestine hasn't declared war on Israel, but Hamas has.
  - loceng 3y ago
    "Actions speak louder than words." And then the same vagueness is the same tactics used by the most well funded, the most sophisticated propaganda machine ever - to make people think being against the actions of their current Israeli government, e.g. war crimes they're committing and have been committing, is anti-Semitism.

by diggan 3y ago

incognos 3y ago

You cannot declare war on a territory you occupy and control. It is as if the United States declared war on Washington DC or any of their numerous prisons.

tromp 3y ago
Israel neither occupied nor controlled the Gaza interior prior to Hamas' attack. They only controlled the border and what goes in and out of Gaza (some cross border tunnels excepted). Within Gaza, Hamas and the Palistinian National Authority ruled.
- incognos 3y ago
  They did both... They control everything that goes in and out of gaza: I quote from MSNBC "Despite pleas from the United Nations and human rights groups, Israel has maintained a land, air and sea blockade on Gaza since 2007 that has had a devastating effect on Palestinian civilians." How do you rule if you control nothing? all the utilities are controlled by Israel. Travel, nope, controlled by Israel. Exports, nope, controlled by Israel. What are they ruling? Israel created Hamas to weaken the Palestinian Authority - which itself is severely corrupt and complacent. People are seeking a better life. How else do you think Trump got elected? was he the better candidate? (and yes, I did just conflate Trump and Hamas)
  - blurbleblurble 3y ago
    I think it would be appropriate to put Hamas leadership, Trump, Biden and Bibi all in there along with a host of others. They're all produced by the same awful games that reward powerful, reprehensible men, promoting even those with majority disapproval to the top of the chain.
- GordonS 3y ago
  > They only controlled the border and what goes in and out of Gaza "only" is used here to diminish the suffering of the Gazan people. Israel has had Gaza under a brutal blockade, across air, land and sea. They control everything that enters or leaves, and infamously were so cruel they counted the calories entering Gaza [0] [1]. Israel even claims control of the air over Gaza, and prevents civilians from collecting rainwater [2] [3] [4]. Israel has been enforcing collective punishment for decades - they want that land, and they want it only for themselves. [0] https://www.timesofisrael.com/israel-counted-calorie-requirements-of-gazans-during-land-blockade-to-avoid-crisis/ https://www.timesofisrael.com/israel-counted-calorie-require... [1] https://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/18/world/middleeast/israel-counted-calories-needed-for-gazans-in-blockade.html https://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/18/world/middleeast/israel-c... [2] https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/campaigns/2017/11/the-occupation-of-water/ https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/campaigns/2017/11/the-occu... [3] https://www.haaretz.com/opinion/2016-06-22/ty-article/.premium/israel-unable-to-tell-truth-about-stealing-water-from-palestinians/0000017f-e068-d75c-a7ff-fced125f0000 https://www.haaretz.com/opinion/2016-06-22/ty-article/.premi... [4] https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2014/3/10/debunking-some-myths-about-israels-water-politics https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2014/3/10/debunking-some-...
  - diordiderot 3y ago
    Damn, I didn't know that Israeli troops also controlled Egypt.
    - GordonS 3y ago
      I'm not entirely sure what you mean by that statement, but I guess you're somehow implying it's not US-backed Israel's fault that they prevents legitimate goods (such as crayons, seeds, fishing rods etc) from entering Gaza... because Egypt? Whataboutism aside, it's well known that US-backed Israel is indeed largely in control of what Egypt does and does not do in regard to Gaza.
      - diordiderot 3y ago
        It's not whataboutism! If you said the only way to cross the Atlantic was by boat and I said you could fly that's not whataboutism > it's well known that US-backed Israel is indeed largely in control of what Egypt does No it's not. You can't just make stuff up
wizerdrobe 3y ago
Would it not be a _civil_ war?
diggan 3y ago
Technically I think Israel declared war on Hamas, not Palestine. Similarly, Palestine hasn't declared war on Israel, but Hamas has.
- loceng 3y ago
  "Actions speak louder than words." And then the same vagueness is the same tactics used by the most well funded, the most sophisticated propaganda machine ever - to make people think being against the actions of their current Israeli government, e.g. war crimes they're committing and have been committing, is anti-Semitism.