6 ms·

Is it appropriate to call this a war? To me it seems more like a nation state fighting a terrorist group, with heavy civilian losses.

dudefeliciano 3y ago
would special military operation be a better term?
- incognos 3y ago
  How about massacre and genocide? they seem far more appropriate to a one sided military operation.
  - xoac 3y ago
    i think this was likely a reference to another contemporary conflict
diggan 3y ago
Yeah, if both parties have declared war against each other, I think it's fair to call it a war. Besides, does it matter what you call it? It's a war for all intents and purposes. Every war/invasion/special military operation is seemingly a "The good guys (me) against the bad guys/terrorists (you)" conflict, and if that's not war, I'm not sure what is.
- incognos 3y ago
  You cannot declare war on a territory you occupy and control. It is as if the United States declared war on Washington DC or any of their numerous prisons.
  - tromp 3y ago
    Israel neither occupied nor controlled the Gaza interior prior to Hamas' attack. They only controlled the border and what goes in and out of Gaza (some cross border tunnels excepted). Within Gaza, Hamas and the Palistinian National Authority ruled.
    - incognos 3y ago
      They did both... They control everything that goes in and out of gaza: I quote from MSNBC "Despite pleas from the United Nations and human rights groups, Israel has maintained a land, air and sea blockade on Gaza since 2007 that has had a devastating effect on Palestinian civilians." How do you rule if you control nothing? all the utilities are controlled by Israel. Travel, nope, controlled by Israel. Exports, nope, controlled by Israel. What are they ruling? Israel created Hamas to weaken the Palestinian Authority - which itself is severely corrupt and complacent. People are seeking a better life. How else do you think Trump got elected? was he the better candidate? (and yes, I did just conflate Trump and Hamas)
      - blurbleblurble 3y ago
        I think it would be appropriate to put Hamas leadership, Trump, Biden and Bibi all in there along with a host of others. They're all produced by the same awful games that reward powerful, reprehensible men, promoting even those with majority disapproval to the top of the chain.
    - GordonS 3y ago
      > They only controlled the border and what goes in and out of Gaza "only" is used here to diminish the suffering of the Gazan people. Israel has had Gaza under a brutal blockade, across air, land and sea. They control everything that enters or leaves, and infamously were so cruel they counted the calories entering Gaza [0] [1]. Israel even claims control of the air over Gaza, and prevents civilians from collecting rainwater [2] [3] [4]. Israel has been enforcing collective punishment for decades - they want that land, and they want it only for themselves. [0] https://www.timesofisrael.com/israel-counted-calorie-requirements-of-gazans-during-land-blockade-to-avoid-crisis/ https://www.timesofisrael.com/israel-counted-calorie-require... [1] https://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/18/world/middleeast/israel-counted-calories-needed-for-gazans-in-blockade.html https://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/18/world/middleeast/israel-c... [2] https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/campaigns/2017/11/the-occupation-of-water/ https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/campaigns/2017/11/the-occu... [3] https://www.haaretz.com/opinion/2016-06-22/ty-article/.premium/israel-unable-to-tell-truth-about-stealing-water-from-palestinians/0000017f-e068-d75c-a7ff-fced125f0000 https://www.haaretz.com/opinion/2016-06-22/ty-article/.premi... [4] https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2014/3/10/debunking-some-myths-about-israels-water-politics https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2014/3/10/debunking-some-...
  - wizerdrobe 3y ago
    Would it not be a _civil_ war?
  - diggan 3y ago
    Technically I think Israel declared war on Hamas, not Palestine. Similarly, Palestine hasn't declared war on Israel, but Hamas has.
    - loceng 3y ago
      "Actions speak louder than words." And then the same vagueness is the same tactics used by the most well funded, the most sophisticated propaganda machine ever - to make people think being against the actions of their current Israeli government, e.g. war crimes they're committing and have been committing, is anti-Semitism.
gataca 3y ago
[flagged]
incognos 3y ago
How is it a terrorist group? The nation state you are referring to is an occupying colonialist state. This same "state" is an apartheid state and not a democracy. You just have to scratch a little under the surface to see it. The nightly raids in the west bank. The concentration camp referred to as Gaza - where this "state" controls all utilities and imports. Hold anyone under your thumb for long enough and they will do their best to get out from under it. Every action has an equal and opposite reaction (Newton's Law of Motion seems to aptly fit)
- hellojesus 3y ago
  Slaughtering a bunch of dancers at a festival seems congruent with terrorism to me. Your argument seems to be: it's okay to do terrorist things if someone makes you. But that's still terrorism.
  - Qem 3y ago
    > Slaughtering a bunch of dancers at a festival seems congruent with terrorism to me. There's evidence many of them were killed by friendly fire, to avoid capture and the need for hostage swaps. See: https://thecradle.co/articles-id/18526 https://thecradle.co/articles-id/18526 https://www.oct7factcheck.com/oct7factcheck/Friendly-fire-Israelis-killed-by-IDF-a0b3530b556e423bb8b40f3b2a5e39bc https://www.oct7factcheck.com/oct7factcheck/Friendly-fire-Is... https://w.ynet.co.il/yediot/7-days/time-of-darkness https://w.ynet.co.il/yediot/7-days/time-of-darkness
    - hellojesus 3y ago
      I recall seeing this shortly after Oct 7; though at that time it was difficult to distinguish whether it was propaganda. I think the Hannibal Directive is not great, but at the same time the Israelis wouldn't have committed those acts had the terrorists not crossed into Isreal intending to do terrorist things. It's terrorism whether you invade to kidnapp civilians or to murder them, and they're was plenty of civilian murdering happening that day as well. Even if Isreal goaded them into doing it to justify genocide, it's still Hamas who decided to do the terrorism.
tyingq 3y ago
> fighting a terrorist group If you occupy territories for decades, with notable differences in the rights of those occupied, you get an insurgency. To me, "terrorism" doesn't really describe the situation well. There have certainly been specific incidents that fit that label, but plenty that look a lot more like plain old rebellion. There have also been acts from the Israelis that could be looked at as terroristic, if you subscribe to the definition of using violence and intimidation for political gain.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]

dudefeliciano 3y ago

would special military operation be a better term?

incognos 3y ago
How about massacre and genocide? they seem far more appropriate to a one sided military operation.
- xoac 3y ago
  i think this was likely a reference to another contemporary conflict

diggan 3y ago

Yeah, if both parties have declared war against each other, I think it's fair to call it a war. Besides, does it matter what you call it? It's a war for all intents and purposes. Every war/invasion/special military operation is seemingly a "The good guys (me) against the bad guys/terrorists (you)" conflict, and if that's not war, I'm not sure what is.

incognos 3y ago
You cannot declare war on a territory you occupy and control. It is as if the United States declared war on Washington DC or any of their numerous prisons.
- tromp 3y ago
  Israel neither occupied nor controlled the Gaza interior prior to Hamas' attack. They only controlled the border and what goes in and out of Gaza (some cross border tunnels excepted). Within Gaza, Hamas and the Palistinian National Authority ruled.
  - incognos 3y ago
    They did both... They control everything that goes in and out of gaza: I quote from MSNBC "Despite pleas from the United Nations and human rights groups, Israel has maintained a land, air and sea blockade on Gaza since 2007 that has had a devastating effect on Palestinian civilians." How do you rule if you control nothing? all the utilities are controlled by Israel. Travel, nope, controlled by Israel. Exports, nope, controlled by Israel. What are they ruling? Israel created Hamas to weaken the Palestinian Authority - which itself is severely corrupt and complacent. People are seeking a better life. How else do you think Trump got elected? was he the better candidate? (and yes, I did just conflate Trump and Hamas)
    - blurbleblurble 3y ago
      I think it would be appropriate to put Hamas leadership, Trump, Biden and Bibi all in there along with a host of others. They're all produced by the same awful games that reward powerful, reprehensible men, promoting even those with majority disapproval to the top of the chain.
  - GordonS 3y ago
    > They only controlled the border and what goes in and out of Gaza "only" is used here to diminish the suffering of the Gazan people. Israel has had Gaza under a brutal blockade, across air, land and sea. They control everything that enters or leaves, and infamously were so cruel they counted the calories entering Gaza [0] [1]. Israel even claims control of the air over Gaza, and prevents civilians from collecting rainwater [2] [3] [4]. Israel has been enforcing collective punishment for decades - they want that land, and they want it only for themselves. [0] https://www.timesofisrael.com/israel-counted-calorie-requirements-of-gazans-during-land-blockade-to-avoid-crisis/ https://www.timesofisrael.com/israel-counted-calorie-require... [1] https://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/18/world/middleeast/israel-counted-calories-needed-for-gazans-in-blockade.html https://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/18/world/middleeast/israel-c... [2] https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/campaigns/2017/11/the-occupation-of-water/ https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/campaigns/2017/11/the-occu... [3] https://www.haaretz.com/opinion/2016-06-22/ty-article/.premium/israel-unable-to-tell-truth-about-stealing-water-from-palestinians/0000017f-e068-d75c-a7ff-fced125f0000 https://www.haaretz.com/opinion/2016-06-22/ty-article/.premi... [4] https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2014/3/10/debunking-some-myths-about-israels-water-politics https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2014/3/10/debunking-some-...
- wizerdrobe 3y ago
  Would it not be a _civil_ war?
- diggan 3y ago
  Technically I think Israel declared war on Hamas, not Palestine. Similarly, Palestine hasn't declared war on Israel, but Hamas has.
  - loceng 3y ago
    "Actions speak louder than words." And then the same vagueness is the same tactics used by the most well funded, the most sophisticated propaganda machine ever - to make people think being against the actions of their current Israeli government, e.g. war crimes they're committing and have been committing, is anti-Semitism.

gataca 3y ago

[flagged]

incognos 3y ago

How is it a terrorist group? The nation state you are referring to is an occupying colonialist state. This same "state" is an apartheid state and not a democracy. You just have to scratch a little under the surface to see it. The nightly raids in the west bank. The concentration camp referred to as Gaza - where this "state" controls all utilities and imports. Hold anyone under your thumb for long enough and they will do their best to get out from under it. Every action has an equal and opposite reaction (Newton's Law of Motion seems to aptly fit)

hellojesus 3y ago
Slaughtering a bunch of dancers at a festival seems congruent with terrorism to me. Your argument seems to be: it's okay to do terrorist things if someone makes you. But that's still terrorism.
- Qem 3y ago
  > Slaughtering a bunch of dancers at a festival seems congruent with terrorism to me. There's evidence many of them were killed by friendly fire, to avoid capture and the need for hostage swaps. See: https://thecradle.co/articles-id/18526 https://thecradle.co/articles-id/18526 https://www.oct7factcheck.com/oct7factcheck/Friendly-fire-Israelis-killed-by-IDF-a0b3530b556e423bb8b40f3b2a5e39bc https://www.oct7factcheck.com/oct7factcheck/Friendly-fire-Is... https://w.ynet.co.il/yediot/7-days/time-of-darkness https://w.ynet.co.il/yediot/7-days/time-of-darkness
  - hellojesus 3y ago
    I recall seeing this shortly after Oct 7; though at that time it was difficult to distinguish whether it was propaganda. I think the Hannibal Directive is not great, but at the same time the Israelis wouldn't have committed those acts had the terrorists not crossed into Isreal intending to do terrorist things. It's terrorism whether you invade to kidnapp civilians or to murder them, and they're was plenty of civilian murdering happening that day as well. Even if Isreal goaded them into doing it to justify genocide, it's still Hamas who decided to do the terrorism.

tyingq 3y ago

> fighting a terrorist group If you occupy territories for decades, with notable differences in the rights of those occupied, you get an insurgency. To me, "terrorism" doesn't really describe the situation well. There have certainly been specific incidents that fit that label, but plenty that look a lot more like plain old rebellion. There have also been acts from the Israelis that could be looked at as terroristic, if you subscribe to the definition of using violence and intimidation for political gain.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]