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> Funny enough I didn't mention fractional scale but heterogeneous scale factors across monitors. Even more niche. And I'm not saying it's not worth solving, I

by brnt 3y ago

> Funny enough I didn't mention fractional scale but heterogeneous scale factors across monitors. Even more niche. And I'm not saying it's not worth solving, I'm saying your niche isn't more important than other niches. > it's more just that NVIDIA specifically holds Wayland compositors back for desktop support. As I wrote, my issues were all on Intel graphics. From 3 different generations. > So, if you're not willing to debug your Linux issues, I literally wrote the opposite of that. Happy to see you confirm the impression I initially put forth though.

jchw 3y ago
> Even more niche. And I'm not saying it's not worth solving, I'm saying your niche isn't more important than other niches. It was niche, but partly thanks to Apple, laptops started getting high DPI screens. Now even relatively cheap laptops have high DPI screens, but many monitors that you would dock to are not high DPI. Hence... Many people run head-first into this when they dock, connect a display, plug their laptop into a TV, or simply have a multi-monitor setup with one that would look better at 125% scale anyways. It was niche. It stopped being niche thanks in part to Apple and hardware manufacturers chasing them, and that's when Windows started to support it better, too. > As I wrote, my issues were all on Intel graphics. From 3 different generations. I don't believe you are lying here, so please believe that I am not lying either. I have plenty (frankly too many, it's a bit absurd at this point) Linux desktop/laptop machines, and of the one UHD Graphics 600 machine (a GPD MicroPC), two Tigerlake machines (a Lenovo and a Microsoft Surface Laptop 4 Intel), and one Intel Arc A750 desktop machine, all of them work very well. And while I don't use all of those constantly, I use the MicroPC and Surface Laptop a lot, and they are among the most stable Linux devices I own. So while I believe what you are saying, what I'm trying to suggest is that they're probably not endemic issues. This is pretty important for the sake of this discussion. > Happy to see you confirm the impression I initially put forth though. I hope you are not expecting people who are simply trying to discuss the future of Linux desktop stacks to be volunteering to debug your personal issues. Don't get me wrong, I'd actually love to help if I could, but debugging hangs and freezes that could be an interplay of any of hardware, driver and compositor is not fun and doing so over the Internet indirectly is even less fun. I fully acknowledge the caveats of running bespoke Linux configurations on unsupported hardware. I don't advocate for normal people to do this. For friends who are stubborn and want to run Linux now on hardware they already own, of course I am supportive and try to help debug it, since I do this same thing all the time. But to me, these are issues that your system vendor should be helping to sort out, not something most people should be expected to figure out on their own. Even for the tech-savvy, it's not fun. As for figuring out where to go to debug a hang, there's no particularly special advice for Wayland versus anything else that may cause systems to lock up, since Wayland compositors are just normal DRM/KMS programs that happen to speak the Wayland protocol. If the machine is not kernel panicking and can be accessed over SSH, I'd wager to guess there is probably something indicative in dmesg.

by brnt 3y ago

jchw 3y ago

> Even more niche. And I'm not saying it's not worth solving, I'm saying your niche isn't more important than other niches. It was niche, but partly thanks to Apple, laptops started getting high DPI screens. Now even relatively cheap laptops have high DPI screens, but many monitors that you would dock to are not high DPI. Hence... Many people run head-first into this when they dock, connect a display, plug their laptop into a TV, or simply have a multi-monitor setup with one that would look better at 125% scale anyways. It was niche. It stopped being niche thanks in part to Apple and hardware manufacturers chasing them, and that's when Windows started to support it better, too. > As I wrote, my issues were all on Intel graphics. From 3 different generations. I don't believe you are lying here, so please believe that I am not lying either. I have plenty (frankly too many, it's a bit absurd at this point) Linux desktop/laptop machines, and of the one UHD Graphics 600 machine (a GPD MicroPC), two Tigerlake machines (a Lenovo and a Microsoft Surface Laptop 4 Intel), and one Intel Arc A750 desktop machine, all of them work very well. And while I don't use all of those constantly, I use the MicroPC and Surface Laptop a lot, and they are among the most stable Linux devices I own. So while I believe what you are saying, what I'm trying to suggest is that they're probably not endemic issues. This is pretty important for the sake of this discussion. > Happy to see you confirm the impression I initially put forth though. I hope you are not expecting people who are simply trying to discuss the future of Linux desktop stacks to be volunteering to debug your personal issues. Don't get me wrong, I'd actually love to help if I could, but debugging hangs and freezes that could be an interplay of any of hardware, driver and compositor is not fun and doing so over the Internet indirectly is even less fun. I fully acknowledge the caveats of running bespoke Linux configurations on unsupported hardware. I don't advocate for normal people to do this. For friends who are stubborn and want to run Linux now on hardware they already own, of course I am supportive and try to help debug it, since I do this same thing all the time. But to me, these are issues that your system vendor should be helping to sort out, not something most people should be expected to figure out on their own. Even for the tech-savvy, it's not fun. As for figuring out where to go to debug a hang, there's no particularly special advice for Wayland versus anything else that may cause systems to lock up, since Wayland compositors are just normal DRM/KMS programs that happen to speak the Wayland protocol. If the machine is not kernel panicking and can be accessed over SSH, I'd wager to guess there is probably something indicative in dmesg.