5 ms·

Let's be generous and take Israeli estimates: 10,000 civilians, excluding Hamas fighters. The initial militant attack took 253 people hostage. As reprehensible

Let's be generous and take Israeli estimates: 10,000 civilians, excluding Hamas fighters. The initial militant attack took 253 people hostage. As reprehensible as that is, it's not worth 10,000 civilian deaths.

rendall 3y ago
You would be correct were the war about retaliation. It is not retaliation. It is a military operation. It is a military operation to remove an implacable enemy who deliberately positions military hardware such as rocket launchers in and around civilians and civilian infrastructure. This is an enemy who would kill more than 30,000 Israeli citizens if it could. Hamas would kill every single Israeli if it acquired the weapons to do so. We know this because they frequently fire rockets at civilian targets. They are doing so even now as you read this. Hamas would kill every single Israeli even if it meant killing thousands of Palestinians. We know this is true because Hamas leadership has been saying this for decades. Further, when you compare civilian casualties to other wars, even other wars in neighboring countries, the casualty rate is extremely low.
- GordonS 3y ago
  > This is an enemy who would kill more than 10,000 if it could And yet, it's Israel that has killed 30-50k... so far. > who deliberately positions military hardware such as rocket launchers in and around civilians and civilian infrastructure Gaza is a very dense, urban area, so it's kind of unavoidable. And you know as well as I do that these "rockets" are barely more than overgrown fireworks - they are mostly symbolic. That said, I do feel like Hamas are fools for continuing to fire them - I understand they need to resist blockade, occupation and dehumanisation, but I just can't see how this could possibly help. > We know this is true because Hamas leadership has been saying this for decades Except, thats not really true, is it? Hamas have been openly saying for several years now that they have no beef with people of the Jewish faith, they just want their homes back.
  - rendall 3y ago
    > 30-50k... so far... ... according to Hamas.
  - rendall 3y ago
    > Except, thats not really true, is it? Hamas have been openly saying for several years now that they have no beef with people of the Jewish faith, they just want their homes back. No, that is not what they have been saying. That's what you have been hearing, but they have been saying they want the area to be under Muslim control. They could have had their homes back decades ago if they accepted Israeli rule. No. When they say "Free Palestine" you hear Western ideas of freedom, democracy, sovereignty, dignity. They mean "Free Palestine of Jews". We know this because they say it and act on it, repeatedly.
    - GordonS 3y ago
      > They could have had their homes back decades ago if they accepted Israeli rule "accepted Israeli rule?!". If Russia decides to occupy your country, would you be so accepting?! Never mind the fact that the West Bank shows exactly what happens when you "accept Israeli rule" - living under a brutal, dehumanising apartheid regime.
      - rendall 3y ago
        Did you know that Israel tried to give Gaza back to Egypt and West Bank back to Jordan? They refused. Palestinians are endless trouble. This is known throughout the Arab world. It's hardly an "occupation". Israel doesn't want it.
        GordonS 3y ago
        > Did you know that Israel tried to give Gaza back to Egypt and West Bank back to Jordan? This is revisionist history - Gaza was never even part of Egypt! [0] Netanyahu's plans for "Greater Israel" (which includes the West Bank and Gaza) also run contrary to this claim. > Israel doesn't want it Israel's actions say otherwise. And let's not forget that Israel continues to illegally occupy land in Lebanon and Syria - they absolutetly want more land, and Gaza would be perfect for a port, some nice beachfront properties etc. Also, why have they built a road bisecting Gaza? Why are many Israelis discussing the occupation of northern Gaza like it's a done deal? Why are Israelis holding meetings to plan building settlements in Gaza, attended by gov ministers? Why has Israel given out deals to oil companies for fields off the north coast of Gaza? [0] https://politics.stackexchange.com/a/81796 https://politics.stackexchange.com/a/81796
- LAC-Tech 3y ago
  Then it's a wildy disproportionate military operation. Israeli lives are not worth 40x Palestinian ones.
  - rendall 3y ago
    Why does this, relatively speaking, extremely low rate of civilian casualties concern you so? Honest question. Have you been similarly concerned by the extremely high rates of ongoing civilian casualties in Syria, Sudan, and Yemen? Those of the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan?
    - LAC-Tech 3y ago
      Do you believe Israelis and non-Israelis are equal? Is the life of a Palestinian worth that of an Israeli?
      - rendall 3y ago
        Of course, generally speaking. If that Palestinian is Hamas or Islamic Jihad or other terrorist, no. My question was genuine. Are you as outraged over the deaths of the collective over 1M Syrians, Yemeni and Sudanese civilians as you are about the 10-30k Gazans?
  - tptacek 3y ago
    It would be no more ethical to reap precisely the same number of innocent lives as Hamas took; in fact, it would arguably be less ethical, since you'd be laying bare your motivation of vengeance and reprisal. The judgement of whether a military operation is defensible is its objective and necessity, not the ratio of casualties inflicted on both sides. I think much of what's been done in Gaza is indefensible (the culpability is shared, but it's an enormous amount of culpability, there's plenty for Netanyahu to account for). But the logic of X Israelis to Y Palestinians doesn't hold and doesn't illuminate.
    - rendall 3y ago
      What is indefensible by Israel in Gaza?

rendall 3y ago

You would be correct were the war about retaliation. It is not retaliation. It is a military operation. It is a military operation to remove an implacable enemy who deliberately positions military hardware such as rocket launchers in and around civilians and civilian infrastructure. This is an enemy who would kill more than 30,000 Israeli citizens if it could. Hamas would kill every single Israeli if it acquired the weapons to do so. We know this because they frequently fire rockets at civilian targets. They are doing so even now as you read this. Hamas would kill every single Israeli even if it meant killing thousands of Palestinians. We know this is true because Hamas leadership has been saying this for decades. Further, when you compare civilian casualties to other wars, even other wars in neighboring countries, the casualty rate is extremely low.

GordonS 3y ago
> This is an enemy who would kill more than 10,000 if it could And yet, it's Israel that has killed 30-50k... so far. > who deliberately positions military hardware such as rocket launchers in and around civilians and civilian infrastructure Gaza is a very dense, urban area, so it's kind of unavoidable. And you know as well as I do that these "rockets" are barely more than overgrown fireworks - they are mostly symbolic. That said, I do feel like Hamas are fools for continuing to fire them - I understand they need to resist blockade, occupation and dehumanisation, but I just can't see how this could possibly help. > We know this is true because Hamas leadership has been saying this for decades Except, thats not really true, is it? Hamas have been openly saying for several years now that they have no beef with people of the Jewish faith, they just want their homes back.
- rendall 3y ago
  > 30-50k... so far... ... according to Hamas.
- rendall 3y ago
  > Except, thats not really true, is it? Hamas have been openly saying for several years now that they have no beef with people of the Jewish faith, they just want their homes back. No, that is not what they have been saying. That's what you have been hearing, but they have been saying they want the area to be under Muslim control. They could have had their homes back decades ago if they accepted Israeli rule. No. When they say "Free Palestine" you hear Western ideas of freedom, democracy, sovereignty, dignity. They mean "Free Palestine of Jews". We know this because they say it and act on it, repeatedly.
  - GordonS 3y ago
    > They could have had their homes back decades ago if they accepted Israeli rule "accepted Israeli rule?!". If Russia decides to occupy your country, would you be so accepting?! Never mind the fact that the West Bank shows exactly what happens when you "accept Israeli rule" - living under a brutal, dehumanising apartheid regime.
    - rendall 3y ago
      Did you know that Israel tried to give Gaza back to Egypt and West Bank back to Jordan? They refused. Palestinians are endless trouble. This is known throughout the Arab world. It's hardly an "occupation". Israel doesn't want it.
      - GordonS 3y ago
        > Did you know that Israel tried to give Gaza back to Egypt and West Bank back to Jordan? This is revisionist history - Gaza was never even part of Egypt! [0] Netanyahu's plans for "Greater Israel" (which includes the West Bank and Gaza) also run contrary to this claim. > Israel doesn't want it Israel's actions say otherwise. And let's not forget that Israel continues to illegally occupy land in Lebanon and Syria - they absolutetly want more land, and Gaza would be perfect for a port, some nice beachfront properties etc. Also, why have they built a road bisecting Gaza? Why are many Israelis discussing the occupation of northern Gaza like it's a done deal? Why are Israelis holding meetings to plan building settlements in Gaza, attended by gov ministers? Why has Israel given out deals to oil companies for fields off the north coast of Gaza? [0] https://politics.stackexchange.com/a/81796 https://politics.stackexchange.com/a/81796
LAC-Tech 3y ago
Then it's a wildy disproportionate military operation. Israeli lives are not worth 40x Palestinian ones.
- rendall 3y ago
  Why does this, relatively speaking, extremely low rate of civilian casualties concern you so? Honest question. Have you been similarly concerned by the extremely high rates of ongoing civilian casualties in Syria, Sudan, and Yemen? Those of the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan?
  - LAC-Tech 3y ago
    Do you believe Israelis and non-Israelis are equal? Is the life of a Palestinian worth that of an Israeli?
    - rendall 3y ago
      Of course, generally speaking. If that Palestinian is Hamas or Islamic Jihad or other terrorist, no. My question was genuine. Are you as outraged over the deaths of the collective over 1M Syrians, Yemeni and Sudanese civilians as you are about the 10-30k Gazans?
- tptacek 3y ago
  It would be no more ethical to reap precisely the same number of innocent lives as Hamas took; in fact, it would arguably be less ethical, since you'd be laying bare your motivation of vengeance and reprisal. The judgement of whether a military operation is defensible is its objective and necessity, not the ratio of casualties inflicted on both sides. I think much of what's been done in Gaza is indefensible (the culpability is shared, but it's an enormous amount of culpability, there's plenty for Netanyahu to account for). But the logic of X Israelis to Y Palestinians doesn't hold and doesn't illuminate.
  - rendall 3y ago
    What is indefensible by Israel in Gaza?