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Yep the gulf between proper leadership and corporate managerialism was never more apparent to me than when I left the army and did an MBA. Leaders are 'in the

Yep the gulf between proper leadership and corporate managerialism was never more apparent to me than when I left the army and did an MBA. Leaders are 'in the trenches', in a commercial environment this means they know their stuff, are putting themselves 'on the line' and are demonstrating the values and standards expected of those further down the ladder. Corporate managers are more like administrators, they dispassionately work the system for their own benefits and pay lip service to the cares and concerns of those they're meant to be leading.

dennis_jeeves2 3y ago
A corollary to what you put above, i.e your main point still holds: A quote attributed to Charles Bukowski here: The problem with the world is that the intelligent people are full of doubts, while the stupid ones are full of confidence. Translates to a work place here is what happens: often when you offer competent people position of authority or power they don't take it or are extremely reluctant to take it.
- jajko 3y ago
  I've seen it recently - a guy in extended family who is hardcore introvert to the point of being very annoying in family settings (yet leads a small team of devs) wanted a promotion and eventually got it. He got overly stressed from all the extra responsibilities, and after few months asked to move back, while everybody told me he did fine job. Here is the thing - he still wasn't ready/good fit even if at glance all seemed fine. Its not just raw skills that make you a good fit for such a role, its the whole package, and how you manage long term while not going crazy. He was simply too junior for that role, even if from whole palette of skills only confidence/'maturity' (lacking proper word here, non-native speaker) was lacking. That was enough. He will get there eventually. No point pushing hard for position that somebody may even give it to you, if it eats you alive (he kept elevated salary though... multinational corps are often weird)
- jack_riminton 3y ago
  To be honest I don't think it's a lack of intelligence (although that can be the case). To get on the MBA you have to have reasonably high mental horsepower. It's more that in corporate machines, management are so far removed and abstracted from making things that they become administrators by default. i.e. the core job becomes tweaking the money making machine. And because everything is so complex it's almost impossible for anyone to identify which tweaks are moving the needle. And so self promotion, displays of power and competence become the de-facto measure of competency. In other words, they become politicians. "The purpose of the system, is what it does" That doesn't mean that leadership isn't necessary, it just more often comes too little too late because everyone's been busy doing nothing important.
  - ryandrake 3y ago
    > To be honest I don't think it's a lack of intelligence (although that can be the case). To get on the MBA you have to have reasonably high mental horsepower. It's more that in corporate machines, management are so far removed and abstracted from making things that they become administrators by default. Exactly. Let's not lazily tar the MBA degree itself and leave it at that: Lots of people have MBAs and aren't corporate tools. Heck, the guy sitting next to you in engineering may have an MBA. They aren't particularly rare, generally taking only 2 years to obtain, and they don't make you dumber when you graduate. The problem is with corporate execs who are running things but are not subject matter experts in what they are running. An SVP of a tech company may know nothing about tech, having managed a soup company or an auto maker in his previous job. His so-called qualification is his ability to make business pronouncements/decisions in a vacuum from the actual technical realities and constraints of the company. They are "generic leadership" professionals. These are the people, in general, who are ruining things, and they don't necessarily hold diplomas that say "MBA" on them.
- quickthrower2 3y ago
  I would take it at a FAANG that actually compensates you for it but out here in the sticks of the rest of the world it just ain’t worth the stress and red tape crunches (like being forced to do scrum or forced to do unrealistic planning in a week for 13 weeks work)
- AndrewDucker 3y ago
  "The best lack all conviction, while the worst Are full of passionate intensity" The Second Coming by Yeats. (Written in 1919, the year before Bukowski was born.)
  - dennis_jeeves2 3y ago
    Oh well, I'm sure that if you read text that goes back centuries, you will find similar thoughts.

dennis_jeeves2 3y ago

A corollary to what you put above, i.e your main point still holds: A quote attributed to Charles Bukowski here: The problem with the world is that the intelligent people are full of doubts, while the stupid ones are full of confidence. Translates to a work place here is what happens: often when you offer competent people position of authority or power they don't take it or are extremely reluctant to take it.

jajko 3y ago
I've seen it recently - a guy in extended family who is hardcore introvert to the point of being very annoying in family settings (yet leads a small team of devs) wanted a promotion and eventually got it. He got overly stressed from all the extra responsibilities, and after few months asked to move back, while everybody told me he did fine job. Here is the thing - he still wasn't ready/good fit even if at glance all seemed fine. Its not just raw skills that make you a good fit for such a role, its the whole package, and how you manage long term while not going crazy. He was simply too junior for that role, even if from whole palette of skills only confidence/'maturity' (lacking proper word here, non-native speaker) was lacking. That was enough. He will get there eventually. No point pushing hard for position that somebody may even give it to you, if it eats you alive (he kept elevated salary though... multinational corps are often weird)
jack_riminton 3y ago
To be honest I don't think it's a lack of intelligence (although that can be the case). To get on the MBA you have to have reasonably high mental horsepower. It's more that in corporate machines, management are so far removed and abstracted from making things that they become administrators by default. i.e. the core job becomes tweaking the money making machine. And because everything is so complex it's almost impossible for anyone to identify which tweaks are moving the needle. And so self promotion, displays of power and competence become the de-facto measure of competency. In other words, they become politicians. "The purpose of the system, is what it does" That doesn't mean that leadership isn't necessary, it just more often comes too little too late because everyone's been busy doing nothing important.
- ryandrake 3y ago
  > To be honest I don't think it's a lack of intelligence (although that can be the case). To get on the MBA you have to have reasonably high mental horsepower. It's more that in corporate machines, management are so far removed and abstracted from making things that they become administrators by default. Exactly. Let's not lazily tar the MBA degree itself and leave it at that: Lots of people have MBAs and aren't corporate tools. Heck, the guy sitting next to you in engineering may have an MBA. They aren't particularly rare, generally taking only 2 years to obtain, and they don't make you dumber when you graduate. The problem is with corporate execs who are running things but are not subject matter experts in what they are running. An SVP of a tech company may know nothing about tech, having managed a soup company or an auto maker in his previous job. His so-called qualification is his ability to make business pronouncements/decisions in a vacuum from the actual technical realities and constraints of the company. They are "generic leadership" professionals. These are the people, in general, who are ruining things, and they don't necessarily hold diplomas that say "MBA" on them.
quickthrower2 3y ago
I would take it at a FAANG that actually compensates you for it but out here in the sticks of the rest of the world it just ain’t worth the stress and red tape crunches (like being forced to do scrum or forced to do unrealistic planning in a week for 13 weeks work)
AndrewDucker 3y ago
"The best lack all conviction, while the worst Are full of passionate intensity" The Second Coming by Yeats. (Written in 1919, the year before Bukowski was born.)
- dennis_jeeves2 3y ago
  Oh well, I'm sure that if you read text that goes back centuries, you will find similar thoughts.