17 ms·

Men In Tech

154 points by raganwald 14y ago

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georgieporgie 14y ago
I think this is largely the expression of terrible, terrible social skills. I've seen appalling things toward women and men alike from young, socially inept Bay Area tech males. Also, for what it's worth, I've received a lot of crap from women over the course of my working life. In college, I worked in a deli where I was the only male. There was outright sexual harassment, and regular dismissal of me solely because I'm a man. Even in tech roles, I've had problems with female bosses who were horrible, socially incompetent worker bees who got promoted out of what they should have been doing (implementation instead of management).
- CHsurfer 14y ago
  I don't think anyone, with good or bad social skills, should have to deal with this crap. As a community we have to set the norm, the expectation that this just not ok. For people just entering the community, they may have different norms (coming from their fraternity - or what ever) but if the people around them set the proper example they will pick it up soon enough. Stories like this are needed to help us get there.
  - sliverstorm 14y ago
    I don't think anyone, with good or bad social skills, should have to deal with this crap. Sure, but if it's bad social skills call it bad social skills, not misogyny.
    - ckoning 14y ago
      The two are not mutually exclusive.
  - georgieporgie 14y ago
    I don't think anyone, with good or bad social skills, should have to deal with this crap. Of course not, and I didn't want to give any impression that my statement endorsed the behavior. Rather, I think that it might be more productive to focus on encouraging people to develop greater social skills rather than framing it around male vs female issues. We tolerate too much elitism, condescension, and dismissal of others' feelings in general, which directly contributes to the sexism problem.
- antihero 14y ago
  I've also seen appalling things toward women from the most social "adept" of people, Rugby teams, bankers...I think the social ineptitude excuse only goes so far.
- wpietri 14y ago
  I'm not persuaded. I know a number of socially inept people. Some of them are perfectly pleasant, just hopelessly awkward. Others are jerks to everyone. But some are sexist jerks. And there are some people who are perfectly well socialized who are also sexist jerks. Women were oppressed for millennia. Women in the US haven't had the vote for even 100 years. Men and women didn't have equal college enrollment rates until circa 1990. I just don't buy the thesis that sexism is now suddenly extinct, especially in a male-dominated field. I'm sorry you've received crap. Due to your gender or anything else. But understand that jumping into a discussion of sexism with "but that happens to me too!" is such a common problem that it's listed in the "Derailing for Dummies" guide: http://www.derailingfordummies.com/menu.html http://www.derailingfordummies.com/menu.html
  - madamepsychosis 14y ago
    ^This. It's not that exclusively women have these problems, it's that they have them to a greater extent than men because of centuries-old ideas about how women and men should act. Articles like these are just saying it'd be nice if we made some effort to reduce the effect of these old social conventions on women in tech today.
  - s_baby 14y ago
    >I'm sorry you've received crap. Due to your gender or anything else. But understand that jumping into a discussion of sexism with "but that happens to me too!" is such a common problem that it's listed in the "Derailing for Dummies" guide: http://www.derailingfordummies.com/menu.html http://www.derailingfordummies.com/menu.html This guide makes zero rational arguments for why those examples are derailment... It's completely rhetorical. Intellectually, it's appropriate to discuss female/male oppression in the context of one another since the idea of patriarchy has been replaced with the idea of kyriarchy; A system where everyone oppresses/stratifies everyone else. It's a matrix of relationships that cannot be examined in isolation. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kyriarchy http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kyriarchy >Women in the US haven't had the vote for even 100 years. Men and women didn't have equal college enrollment rates until circa 1990. I just don't buy the thesis that sexism is now suddenly extinct, especially in a male-dominated field. Only ~10% of early Americans were eligible to vote. All white men weren't given the right to vote until the mid 19th century. A generation before women were granted the right. Very few men benefited from a "patriarchal" social configuration. The fact that a small minority of white men had privilege doesn't negate the social costs externalized on the average man. The only realistic opportunities available to these men were war, working on a farm, working in a coal mine, or working in an industrial era factory. Having the "freedom" to be part of the workforce did not offer you the opportunities it does today...
sp332 14y ago
I'll take my time explaining what professionalism is, and what it means in the workplace. I'll take care not to offend you as I explain the roles of men and women in any industry. Some place I can find this?
KaoruAoiShiho 14y ago
Hmm, not completely sure what this article is getting at but it seems to be implying that men and women are the same and would feel the same way when reacting to such things as sexual harassment and whether or not you're desirable to the opposite sex. That's basically a completely false premise. Because of biological facts and the resultant social history, men and women have completely different values and attitudes to sex. As such this story seems pretty unrealistic to me. That's not to say that patriarchy doesn't suck and that women doesn't face a lot of adversity in tech and so on.
- zenogais 14y ago
  I'm kinda hoping this is a joke, but I'm also guessing not. The point is you would feel as helpless and frustrated as women do now if the tables were turned and the entire social structure was set up so as to belittle you and give you little recourse to respond. Also men and women are very similar in terms of values and attitudes towards sex regardless of the prevailing popular myths.
  - KaoruAoiShiho 14y ago
    >prevailing popular myths Lovely arrogance. Please look up Terri D. Conley and Sexual Strategies Theory.
  - NotMyMorals 14y ago
    >Also men and women are very similar in terms of values and attitudes towards sex regardless of the prevailing popular myths. In the sense they both expect different values and attitudes towards sex from men and women. Keep your religion-derived asexual "men and women are the same" nonsense to your church or feminist club.
- deleted 14y ago
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- sp332 14y ago
  I have to disagree. It's actually pretty trivial to create a situation that puts men at the same disadvantage, and it happens all the time in other industries. Heck I saw it really happen when it was supposed to be a joke.
knowtheory 14y ago
Reading this is really awkward. And it's not awkward because it reveals some hidden truth, or because it's a good piece of writing that reflects on the issue it's tackling. No, instead it's awkward because the gender dynamics are not reversible. At least, not in the manner that's intended here. You can't just take the circumstances that women face in tech fields, and switch around the pronouns and have the circumstances make sense, because doing so does not swap out the cultural contexts which reside in the reader's head (which is one of the critical points in the veil of ignorance thought experiment: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veil_of_ignorance http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veil_of_ignorance ). There are female dominated fields in which men are rare (nursing and dietetics to name two) and encounter all sort of social awkwardness due to being the minority. But the sorts of circumstances that guys face, while there are some correlations, are not analogous problems to the problems that women face in fields in which they are the minority. The oft cited thing keeping men out of nursing and dietetics are cultural things like the work not being "manly" enough, as opposed to facing sexual harassment and pejorative or demeaning behavior.
- xyzzyz 14y ago
  Of course the story described in the post have zero chance of happening in the real world, but that's the whole point, I guess.
  - antonb2011 14y ago
    That's what you think. A good friend of mine is 6'2 and used to be a part time male fitness model. He's a software engineer at a large bank and all the girls hit on him and never believe him when he says he's a software engineer.
- dsrguru 14y ago
  The article reads so awkwardly because that's exactly the author's point. Unless I completely misread the article, the author is trying to convey to the male reader that the issues female programmers face aren't made up by far leftist feminazis, but rather are very real and very difficult for a man to relate to.
- 14y ago
nowarninglabel 14y ago
I've been appreciating all the articles on HN calling out sexism in the [tech] workplace. It's actually made me change my own behavior at work, though I've been told I never offended anyone, I've started doing things like never saying "that's what she said" as well as chastising co-workers when they say it. It would be nice if there were something to say instead, that could still add a lightness and moment of comedy to a conversation, but without being offensive. Haven't found a phrase yet that fits that mold though.
- knowtheory 14y ago
  I've been trying to figure out whether turnaround is fair play: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hxvujEmyiPQ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hxvujEmyiPQ
  - yummyfajitas 14y ago
    I'm confused - is the video mocking women who whine about "that's what she said" jokes?
    - niete 14y ago
      I hope so. They are annoying.
zdw 14y ago
This is a pretty artificial and transparent effort, but it's well intentioned. It's often interesting to see commentary from fields where the gender divide skews heavily toward women. Libraries are one good example - I know several people of both genders who work in them. To make some broad generalization, sexual harassment tends to be a more minor issue, but "drama" and territorialism tends to be much worse. One example of this - a male I know enjoyed working with some of his female coworkers better than others. As a result, there were complaints and grumbling from other staff members. It's almost as if he was a pawn on the chessboard of social status. I'd love to hear similar stories - I know they're out there...
- robconery 14y ago
  Does your local library push videos of Hot Library Chicks dancing around poles while male library guys rap in their face? (referring to the Nokia Vimeo video). This isn't about gender divide, it's about a complete lack of understanding.
fatjokes 14y ago
wtf did I just read??
- aslan 14y ago
  My sentiment exactly.
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wamatt 14y ago
Would someone be kind enough to get us the TLDR version? Not sure the point, the writer is trying to make.
- chrisguitarguy 14y ago
  Essentially the author is trying to put the male readers in a women's shoes. In other words, take every sexist tech story that's popped up in tech news in the last few months and reverse the pronouns. It's certainly an interesting read, but not particularly well executed. There is a book called Egalia's Daughters[1] that does a similar thing in a much more powerful, primal way. Seriously worth a read. 1. http://www.amazon.com/Egalias-Daughters-A-Satire-Sexes/dp/1878067583 http://www.amazon.com/Egalias-Daughters-A-Satire-Sexes/dp/18...
  - wamatt 14y ago
    Ok but why should we care? I mean it's not like men are raging about the lack of male orientated pregnancy articles. I don't get it. Tech is male orientated because there are much more males in it. It make sense to then align the reporting towards the base.
    - JoachimSchipper 14y ago
      Think "you'd feel bad if this happened to you. By empathy, you should figure out that women feel bad if this happens to them."
      - JanezStupar 14y ago
        I've had most of the events mentioned in the article happen to me, by women. I was also labeled as gay in milieu for turning down a woman. I was hit on by gay men in an extremely uncomfortable fashion more than once. I was also assaulted by complete strangers for no reason at all. I was also isolated and bullied by my schoolmates in kindergarten and primary school (boys and girls). And if I go and complain about it I will be labeled as less than a man. So why should I care? p.s.: Disclaimer. Since I grew big and strong enough to do it I also disallow any kind of improper behavior in my presence.
redwood 14y ago
Wtf, sure we need to be cognizant of discrimination against men in our society, and I think there are great arguments to be made that men are generally portrayed as dumb in TV shows, for example. However we cannot equate men's and women's experiences of the world we live in. I want to, and have the mistake of doing so many times, but I've since seen how wrong I've been. My female friend told me the following which radically transformed my perspective Ask any group of women "What do you do to protect yourself in your daily life?" Dome typical answers - never walk alone at night - hold car keys out while walking to car so you can open car door quickly - do not make eye contact or smile to strangers at night - do not go to bars or clubs alone - carry money in bra in case bag is taken - never put down your drink - the list goes on and on Women's life experiences are thus characterized by a constant and unending fear of sexual assault. When you ask men the same question---to list what they do to protect themselves in their daily life... --> the answer is just about nothing. We men walk around like we own urban environments. We have very little to lose and we have a lot of fun with it all. However we have a major bias that we need to be aware of: women are raised to be in constant fear, a fear they don't share with us. This has tremendous implications throughout life. Also this is only one example of a difference in life experience between men and women. There are of course many more.
- danso 14y ago
  Great points. Just had to say: I've heard that holding car keys at the ready is also intended as a impromptu sharp weapon to an attacker's face/eyes. Which only underscores your general point
  - Ixiaus 14y ago
    That actually is the reason why you hold your car keys. It's less of a "being able to get in the car quickly" and more about being able to "gouge their eye out".
- sigmaxipi 14y ago
  >Women's life experiences are thus characterized by a constant and unending fear of sexual assault. >When you ask men the same question---to list what they do to protect themselves in their daily life... --> the answer is just about nothing. Why is this fear a bad thing for women? Interesting fact: men are more likely to be victims of violent crime[1] and this has been pretty much true throughout history[2] though it is getting better. That fear is probably quite useful in keeping them alive since women are only half as likely to be victims of assaults by strangers[3] [1] http://web.archive.org/web/20060926004448/http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/glance/vsx2.htm http://web.archive.org/web/20060926004448/http://www.ojp.usd... [2] http://www.ted.com/talks/steven_pinker_on_the_myth_of_violence.html http://www.ted.com/talks/steven_pinker_on_the_myth_of_violen... [3] http://web.archive.org/web/20060927115258/http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/pub/ascii/sdvv.txt http://web.archive.org/web/20060927115258/http://www.ojp.usd...
awakeasleep 14y ago
Wow. What a killer article. I think it went pretty far in depth, and I let myself take the time to imagine everything the author was describing, and I fuckin felt it man. If this was written by a man, I applaud the effort you put into empathizing with women. If it was written by a woman, Thank you for thinking up so many creative and kick ass examples. Our society has a long way to go before we reach equality. And I fucking PRAY it happens with greater reverence for sex in general, instead of applying to crude commercialized form of sexuality to both genders. I've been noticing people using sexuality in a manipulative and threatening way at work a bunch lately, and it fucking sucks. If anyone out there has trouble socializing, and wants to know a good way to do it: Share your feelings with a girl in private, and start off small. Yeah it makes you vulnerable but that is an essential part of real love. DO NOT make sexual comments in front of other people.
- tomp 14y ago
  > Our society has a long way to go before we reach equality. Why is there such a strong emphasis on equality? In Slovenian, we have two similar words, of which one means "equality", and the other means roughly "equal rights". I'm always annoyed when the former is stated as a goal, instead of the latter. We're not equal, and never will be. For example, men don't have to bear children, they don't need a "paternal leave" (where it's available, it's a nice bonus, but it shouldn't be introduced/mandatory at the expense of the maternal leave). Another apparent difference between the sexes is the different priorities in the choice of mate. I'm sure that the bigger emphasis assigned by man to the visual appearance of women is partially based in our culture, but also partially based in our biology. Sure, sexual comments at the workplace are inappropriate, but I'm never going to seek excuses for my preference for seeing sexy women in ads (btw, another gender bias used in ads, but rarely mentioned, even by the most fierce proponents of "equality": if a person is implied to be socially awkward/stupid/taken advantage of, it's almost always a man). There is, however, one area where men and women are mostly equal: the advantages in life that the alpha members of each sex are awarded with (the meaning of alpha differ between the genders: in women, it's mostly looks, in men, it's fame, power, money, fitness/lookss (not necessarily in this order)).
  - 14y ago
lucisferre 14y ago
The comments here so far are mind bogglingly stupid. It's intended as a satire, simple as that. Try not to over think it guys.
- cwp 14y ago
  Satire, huh? So by telling a story of sexism with the genders reversed, the author is slyly poking fun at all the fuss about sexism in tech that we've been hearing lately, and showing us how ridiculous it all is. That's an interesting take, 'cause I sure didn't read it that way. To me it seems more like a straight put-yourself-in-her-shoes appeal to empathy for women who brave the tech industry.
  - benmccann 14y ago
    Isn't this more a story of sexualization and objectification than sexism? It was an interesting read to empathize with the uncomfortableness of the situation, but the sexualization stood out to me far more sexism.
  - lucisferre 14y ago
    > To me it seems more like a straight put-yourself-in-her-shoes appeal to empathy for women who brave the tech industry. Yes, done as satire...
kitsune_ 14y ago
Is this a rant? I'm confused.
sasha-dv 14y ago
Just what women need! Another middle-aged white man fighting for the women's rights. It's condescending. It's just a step away from "A Gay Girl in Damascus".
- dgabriel 14y ago
  I respectfully disagree.
  - sasha-dv 14y ago
    Can you elaborate on that?
- ericabiz 14y ago
  Hi, I have no idea if you are a woman or a man, but as a woman in tech, I feel compelled to reply. I appreciated this story. Not so much the comments attached to it on HN, but the story itself. If it got some guys thinking about how they would feel if this happened: "You don't look like a programmer! When did you get into computers? That's kinda hot..." Which has happened to me so many times I've lost count...usually followed closely by "Are you single?" If it gets guys to stop saying THAT...then it was well worth the whole thing.
  - yummyfajitas 14y ago
    Many people tell me I don't seem like a programmer, and quite a few are surprised to discover I went to college or do non-manual labor. There is just something about my personality that suggests to people I'm not a knowledge worker, unless the topic comes up in conversation. They have heuristics, priors and reasoning which lead them to correct results most of the time. Maybe they are even irrational and have a sucky predictor. I know how I feel about this - meh. Incidentally, why do you feel that being found attractive is a problem? And is this also a problem in fields with 50% women?
  - randomdata 14y ago
    I am male and have received the "you don't look like a programmer" comment on numerous occasions. It usually comes from other men, so it's not typically followed by the "are you single?" question. Is it the latter that makes you uncomfortable? To be brutally honest, I find that kind of question rather flattering. Another one I frequently hear: I farm as a hobby. When I meet someone and talk about my farming adventures first, then tell them I also develop software, they are always like "Whoa, you know how to program computers? But you are a farmer!" like a farmer isn't smart enough to do that kind of work. Personally, I think it is funny knowing that farming is the one that is far more mentally challenging out of the two, but it really could be hurtful if directed at the wrong person.
michaelochurch 14y ago
My boss (the senior dev) is a Dragon Girl Targaryens everywhere!
- robconery 14y ago
  LOL the image I was going to use in the header was Daenaerys - but thought it went a bit too far. PJ Harvey is a hero, so I decided she should sit atop the post.
scotty79 14y ago
OP could make his statement much stronger if he wrote the whole piece from perspective of bit asexual straight man working in environment dominated by gay men who would introduce in daily worklife all kinds of innuendos often forgetting that protagonist is not interested in them and also not very interested in sexual layer of human interaction. I think the innate homophoby of the readers could help them to better understand.
- JanezStupar 14y ago
  There is no need to be a slightly asexual man in gay men environment. It is quite enough that you are a man in a mostly female environment. When a woman approaches you and you turn her down then strange shit starts happening.
  - scotty79 14y ago
    Maybe but most of target audience of such story doesn't have first hand experience of working in mostly female environment and while reading about it they would imagine happyland of pure bliss with a bit of thrill. I think straight men have similar level of uneasiness about gay men as women about straight men. Mostly safe despite all the silly stuff but...
- yummyfajitas 14y ago
  Yes, lets read an article by a straight man about how the gays kept him out of the fashion industry by finding him attractive and behaving effeminately. Then lets try to take it even half as seriously as articles about how those geeks keep women out of tech by finding them attractive and behaving nerdily.
  - banter 14y ago
    You do realize that there are plenty of gay men in the tech industry, don't you? You also know that "behaving effeminately" is not characteristic of all homosexual men, right? Consider, instead, a tech environment dominated by gay men and the article is about, as you put it, "how those geeks keep men out of tech by finding them attractive and behaving nerdily." Scotty79 may be onto more than is immediately obvious, and you do his idea a disservice to dismiss it so quickly. In the OP's article, the victim of the gender-based injustices writes that he wrongly thought he had left the harassment and the immaturity of others behind him--back in high school and college. I'm almost certain, however, that many gays, of any gender and in any industry, feel the same way when they have to deal with their coworkers saying things like "that's gay," "no homo," "don't be a fag, man," and for the gay men in particular, "don't be a pussy," "stop acting like a bitch," "quit acting like a girl," etc. It's quite obvious, too, that the misogyny carries over when men are criticized for "behaving effeminately," as if there could possibly be an absolute definition of femininity and that it is wrong for men to approach it, even slightly.[1] As mentioned earlier, Scotty's suggestion was not about imagining the struggles of a straight man trying to break into a typically 'gay' industry; it was about writing from the perspective of a "straight man working in [an] environment dominated by gay men." That is, any environment (the tech industry, in our case) which is hypothetically dominated by homosexual men in a way similar to the female dominance found in the OP's article. The main difference between the two posts would be that, as per Scotty's suggestion, the story's protagonist would be the sexual target of other men--giving a, perhaps, more faithful glimpse into the tech world women have to deal with every day. The OP's hypothetical role-reversal throughout the entire world and history, while somehow still attributing the same brutish machismo to those running things, is an interesting change indeed, but it depends quite heavily on the reader's willing suspension of disbelief. At any rate, I'm glad Rob took the time to write "Men in Tech." I was really worried, for a moment at the start, that the narrative would turn into one of those, "men can hypothetically deal with this type of harassment, why can't you?" I'm so glad it didn't. 1. It's worth reading Michael S Kimmel's "Masculinity as Homophobia," since it discusses how men fear being 'unmasked' as either gay or effeminate, and so overcompensate by emphasizing the perceived homosexuality or effeminacy of others. http://www.stthomas.edu/diversity/files/Masculinity_as_Homop.pdf http://www.stthomas.edu/diversity/files/Masculinity_as_Homop... http://faculty.ucc.edu/psysoc-stokes/Masculinity.pdf http://faculty.ucc.edu/psysoc-stokes/Masculinity.pdf
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emgreen 14y ago
I like this as an exercise in empathy. It's important to consider how we treat the "odd ones out" in any group. Maybe we're on snowboarding holiday with friends who are all mad keen boarders, except for one who's never seen snow before, we'd probably adjust our behaviour and hang out on the baby slopes a bit and help out our friend. Or maybe we're organising a work party, and it would normally be a slightly boozy affair in a bar, but we know someone doesn't drink because they're pregnant/alcoholic/religious/don't like it/training for a marathon, so we might do something a bit different, like take everyone for a bbq on the beach. Maybe we own a cafe, and there's a step out the front, we might get a ramp ready, so that if someone in a wheelchair wants to visit they can get in okay. For whatever reason, at the moment, being a female in tech means you're an "odd one out". The lack of women in tech is not the men in tech's fault, (the men in tech are mostly pretty lovely, certainly I like working with them). The lack of women is no-one's fault, the reasons run deep and are complicated. It's also not a terrible experience being a women in tech, it's a good job. I guess the worse you can say is that it's hard to be different to everyone around you. And let's face it women haven't got the monopoly on that, we all know what that feels like. It's not really about gender, I'm sure there's many men who feel excluded by the whole "brogrammer" thing too. Sometimes the discourse around the whole "women in tech" thing makes me scared, I feel like it's stirring people to feel accused or hurt or angry or confused, and causing them to divide. It shouldn't really be about women, it doesn't even make sense, we're half of humanity for goodness sake, 3.4 x 10^9 very separate people, why consider us to be such a coherent group? It should be about trying to understand those around us as individuals, who are not necessarilly the same as us, and seeing if there's any small adjustments or accommodations we could make so that they can be themselves, and also a part of our group. And we should be doing this, just because it's right, and that's the sort of world we want to live in.
- Ixiaus 14y ago
  The problem though, is empathy is going to be really hard for men -> women or women -> men; both sexes are remarkably different culturally. What you see is a large number of socially awkward and inept people flocking to industries where being socially tact is less valued over intellectual prowess. Women have always been more socially tactful than men - it's how our society is set up, women are treated as a valued commodity. If you want a "close" approximation of figuring out what it's like to be the other gender in a "x dominated field", you should go the route of the author of this book: http://www.amazon.com/Self-Made-Man-Womans-Journey-Manhood/dp/0670034665 http://www.amazon.com/Self-Made-Man-Womans-Journey-Manhood/d... She did a remarkable job of actually experiencing what being a man in our society is like. I would be very interested if someone of the male sex were to do something similar and write a book about it, this article doesn't cut it IMHO.
jeffio 14y ago
I see what you did there.
icebraining 14y ago
It doesn't work for me; I can't imagine an entire field of women acting like that.
Craiggybear 14y ago
I was trained to program (Assembly language) twenty five years ago -- by a woman. There were a lot of female software engineers/programmers then and no one even commented on it. My stepfather (an electronics and heavy power engineer) had a very stylish and beautiful lady colleague at Westinghouse and she was a senior engineering lead -- that was more than 35 years ago. I also know lots of male gay engineers and programmers and no one thinks this worthy of comment either. No one paid attention to this female programmer thing until relatively recently, I've found. The past really is a different country.
NotMyMorals 14y ago
Have to admit I don't really care if there are fewer women in tech, or if they feel uncomfortable in a boy's club, and don't see any reason why we should have to change to make them feel better. Just because "sexism" is against your moral code doesn't mean it's against mine. The old joke is true - to avoid sexual harassment accusations: 1) be attractive, 2) don't be unattractive. I've dated plenty of women at work, flirt all the time, and no one has ever accused me of "harassment" or "sexism." My boss lady caught me checking out her ass once, the next few weeks she wore short skirts and made sure to walk by my desk. It was great.
- captainsaveaho 14y ago
  Are you hiring?
bdg 14y ago
I don't really like my neighbours, so I get changed with the blinds open. It's different when you're a man.
captainsaveaho 14y ago
Wait... Rob can afford a car? I thought he had to ride to work on a paddle board? And I'm also going to call BS on his bulging pecs and biceps. I bet he couldn't even bench the bar for 10 reps.
yelsgib 14y ago
Try reading this with a sense of wonder, rather than as a heavy piece of social commentary.
chriskolenko 14y ago
I think the next time I meet a feminist I'm going to punch her in the face and say you're welcome. They sh!t me, and I don't want to discriminate because she's a girl. Why do people think women should be treated exactly the same as men? Soon as people realise biology makes the sexs different we can use this knowledge to our advantage. Women are better than men in ways and men are better than women in ways. In any environment you need to know the strengths and weaknesses of your team to know exactly how to make it run at its full potential. I'm over girls complaining about being discriminated against. If you don't like the pay or the environment you work in leave! You have a choice. It's exactly like watching a bad tv show. There is no point going on twitter or your blog saying how bad it is. You've just given the show 1 viewer plus free marketing. The only way to get the show cancelled is to stop watching. The point I'm trying to make is. Stop trying to make me feel bad for you because I don't. Leave your job until you find one you like with no discrimination and if all the girls who felt discriminated against did this there would be no discrimination. I get discriminated against because of my age. I'm 26 and for the last couple of years I've been a senior developer. It's hard for me to get a job because people think I'm too young for the position. When in fact I've spent more time coding then a 30 year old. Hirers don't count hours after 5pm aparently. I can tell you what I didn't do. I didn't write a blog having a cry over it. One last thing, most of the girls I've meet over the years always say they want to be treated like men. But why do they get so happy when you open a door for them? No chick has ever opened my door. It just seems like they want the best of both worlds.

154 points by raganwald 14y ago

deleted 14y ago

[deleted]

I think this is largely the expression of terrible, terrible social skills. I've seen appalling things toward women and men alike from young, socially inept Bay Area tech males. Also, for what it's worth, I've received a lot of crap from women over the course of my working life. In college, I worked in a deli where I was the only male. There was outright sexual harassment, and regular dismissal of me solely because I'm a man. Even in tech roles, I've had problems with female bosses who were horrible, socially incompetent worker bees who got promoted out of what they should have been doing (implementation instead of management).

CHsurfer 14y ago
I don't think anyone, with good or bad social skills, should have to deal with this crap. As a community we have to set the norm, the expectation that this just not ok. For people just entering the community, they may have different norms (coming from their fraternity - or what ever) but if the people around them set the proper example they will pick it up soon enough. Stories like this are needed to help us get there.
- sliverstorm 14y ago
  I don't think anyone, with good or bad social skills, should have to deal with this crap. Sure, but if it's bad social skills call it bad social skills, not misogyny.
  - ckoning 14y ago
    The two are not mutually exclusive.
- georgieporgie 14y ago
  I don't think anyone, with good or bad social skills, should have to deal with this crap. Of course not, and I didn't want to give any impression that my statement endorsed the behavior. Rather, I think that it might be more productive to focus on encouraging people to develop greater social skills rather than framing it around male vs female issues. We tolerate too much elitism, condescension, and dismissal of others' feelings in general, which directly contributes to the sexism problem.
antihero 14y ago
I've also seen appalling things toward women from the most social "adept" of people, Rugby teams, bankers...I think the social ineptitude excuse only goes so far.
wpietri 14y ago
I'm not persuaded. I know a number of socially inept people. Some of them are perfectly pleasant, just hopelessly awkward. Others are jerks to everyone. But some are sexist jerks. And there are some people who are perfectly well socialized who are also sexist jerks. Women were oppressed for millennia. Women in the US haven't had the vote for even 100 years. Men and women didn't have equal college enrollment rates until circa 1990. I just don't buy the thesis that sexism is now suddenly extinct, especially in a male-dominated field. I'm sorry you've received crap. Due to your gender or anything else. But understand that jumping into a discussion of sexism with "but that happens to me too!" is such a common problem that it's listed in the "Derailing for Dummies" guide: http://www.derailingfordummies.com/menu.html http://www.derailingfordummies.com/menu.html
- madamepsychosis 14y ago
  ^This. It's not that exclusively women have these problems, it's that they have them to a greater extent than men because of centuries-old ideas about how women and men should act. Articles like these are just saying it'd be nice if we made some effort to reduce the effect of these old social conventions on women in tech today.
- s_baby 14y ago
  >I'm sorry you've received crap. Due to your gender or anything else. But understand that jumping into a discussion of sexism with "but that happens to me too!" is such a common problem that it's listed in the "Derailing for Dummies" guide: http://www.derailingfordummies.com/menu.html http://www.derailingfordummies.com/menu.html This guide makes zero rational arguments for why those examples are derailment... It's completely rhetorical. Intellectually, it's appropriate to discuss female/male oppression in the context of one another since the idea of patriarchy has been replaced with the idea of kyriarchy; A system where everyone oppresses/stratifies everyone else. It's a matrix of relationships that cannot be examined in isolation. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kyriarchy http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kyriarchy >Women in the US haven't had the vote for even 100 years. Men and women didn't have equal college enrollment rates until circa 1990. I just don't buy the thesis that sexism is now suddenly extinct, especially in a male-dominated field. Only ~10% of early Americans were eligible to vote. All white men weren't given the right to vote until the mid 19th century. A generation before women were granted the right. Very few men benefited from a "patriarchal" social configuration. The fact that a small minority of white men had privilege doesn't negate the social costs externalized on the average man. The only realistic opportunities available to these men were war, working on a farm, working in a coal mine, or working in an industrial era factory. Having the "freedom" to be part of the workforce did not offer you the opportunities it does today...

sp332 14y ago

I'll take my time explaining what professionalism is, and what it means in the workplace. I'll take care not to offend you as I explain the roles of men and women in any industry. Some place I can find this?

KaoruAoiShiho 14y ago

Hmm, not completely sure what this article is getting at but it seems to be implying that men and women are the same and would feel the same way when reacting to such things as sexual harassment and whether or not you're desirable to the opposite sex. That's basically a completely false premise. Because of biological facts and the resultant social history, men and women have completely different values and attitudes to sex. As such this story seems pretty unrealistic to me. That's not to say that patriarchy doesn't suck and that women doesn't face a lot of adversity in tech and so on.

zenogais 14y ago
I'm kinda hoping this is a joke, but I'm also guessing not. The point is you would feel as helpless and frustrated as women do now if the tables were turned and the entire social structure was set up so as to belittle you and give you little recourse to respond. Also men and women are very similar in terms of values and attitudes towards sex regardless of the prevailing popular myths.
- KaoruAoiShiho 14y ago
  >prevailing popular myths Lovely arrogance. Please look up Terri D. Conley and Sexual Strategies Theory.
- NotMyMorals 14y ago
  >Also men and women are very similar in terms of values and attitudes towards sex regardless of the prevailing popular myths. In the sense they both expect different values and attitudes towards sex from men and women. Keep your religion-derived asexual "men and women are the same" nonsense to your church or feminist club.
deleted 14y ago
[deleted]
sp332 14y ago
I have to disagree. It's actually pretty trivial to create a situation that puts men at the same disadvantage, and it happens all the time in other industries. Heck I saw it really happen when it was supposed to be a joke.

knowtheory 14y ago

Reading this is really awkward. And it's not awkward because it reveals some hidden truth, or because it's a good piece of writing that reflects on the issue it's tackling. No, instead it's awkward because the gender dynamics are not reversible. At least, not in the manner that's intended here. You can't just take the circumstances that women face in tech fields, and switch around the pronouns and have the circumstances make sense, because doing so does not swap out the cultural contexts which reside in the reader's head (which is one of the critical points in the veil of ignorance thought experiment: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veil_of_ignorance http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veil_of_ignorance ). There are female dominated fields in which men are rare (nursing and dietetics to name two) and encounter all sort of social awkwardness due to being the minority. But the sorts of circumstances that guys face, while there are some correlations, are not analogous problems to the problems that women face in fields in which they are the minority. The oft cited thing keeping men out of nursing and dietetics are cultural things like the work not being "manly" enough, as opposed to facing sexual harassment and pejorative or demeaning behavior.

xyzzyz 14y ago
Of course the story described in the post have zero chance of happening in the real world, but that's the whole point, I guess.
- antonb2011 14y ago
  That's what you think. A good friend of mine is 6'2 and used to be a part time male fitness model. He's a software engineer at a large bank and all the girls hit on him and never believe him when he says he's a software engineer.
dsrguru 14y ago
The article reads so awkwardly because that's exactly the author's point. Unless I completely misread the article, the author is trying to convey to the male reader that the issues female programmers face aren't made up by far leftist feminazis, but rather are very real and very difficult for a man to relate to.
14y ago

nowarninglabel 14y ago

I've been appreciating all the articles on HN calling out sexism in the [tech] workplace. It's actually made me change my own behavior at work, though I've been told I never offended anyone, I've started doing things like never saying "that's what she said" as well as chastising co-workers when they say it. It would be nice if there were something to say instead, that could still add a lightness and moment of comedy to a conversation, but without being offensive. Haven't found a phrase yet that fits that mold though.

knowtheory 14y ago
I've been trying to figure out whether turnaround is fair play: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hxvujEmyiPQ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hxvujEmyiPQ
- yummyfajitas 14y ago
  I'm confused - is the video mocking women who whine about "that's what she said" jokes?
  - niete 14y ago
    I hope so. They are annoying.

zdw 14y ago

This is a pretty artificial and transparent effort, but it's well intentioned. It's often interesting to see commentary from fields where the gender divide skews heavily toward women. Libraries are one good example - I know several people of both genders who work in them. To make some broad generalization, sexual harassment tends to be a more minor issue, but "drama" and territorialism tends to be much worse. One example of this - a male I know enjoyed working with some of his female coworkers better than others. As a result, there were complaints and grumbling from other staff members. It's almost as if he was a pawn on the chessboard of social status. I'd love to hear similar stories - I know they're out there...

robconery 14y ago
Does your local library push videos of Hot Library Chicks dancing around poles while male library guys rap in their face? (referring to the Nokia Vimeo video). This isn't about gender divide, it's about a complete lack of understanding.

fatjokes 14y ago

wtf did I just read??

aslan 14y ago
My sentiment exactly.

deleted 14y ago

[deleted]

wamatt 14y ago

Would someone be kind enough to get us the TLDR version? Not sure the point, the writer is trying to make.

chrisguitarguy 14y ago
Essentially the author is trying to put the male readers in a women's shoes. In other words, take every sexist tech story that's popped up in tech news in the last few months and reverse the pronouns. It's certainly an interesting read, but not particularly well executed. There is a book called Egalia's Daughters[1] that does a similar thing in a much more powerful, primal way. Seriously worth a read. 1. http://www.amazon.com/Egalias-Daughters-A-Satire-Sexes/dp/1878067583 http://www.amazon.com/Egalias-Daughters-A-Satire-Sexes/dp/18...
- wamatt 14y ago
  Ok but why should we care? I mean it's not like men are raging about the lack of male orientated pregnancy articles. I don't get it. Tech is male orientated because there are much more males in it. It make sense to then align the reporting towards the base.
  - JoachimSchipper 14y ago
    Think "you'd feel bad if this happened to you. By empathy, you should figure out that women feel bad if this happens to them."
    - JanezStupar 14y ago
      I've had most of the events mentioned in the article happen to me, by women. I was also labeled as gay in milieu for turning down a woman. I was hit on by gay men in an extremely uncomfortable fashion more than once. I was also assaulted by complete strangers for no reason at all. I was also isolated and bullied by my schoolmates in kindergarten and primary school (boys and girls). And if I go and complain about it I will be labeled as less than a man. So why should I care? p.s.: Disclaimer. Since I grew big and strong enough to do it I also disallow any kind of improper behavior in my presence.

redwood 14y ago

Wtf, sure we need to be cognizant of discrimination against men in our society, and I think there are great arguments to be made that men are generally portrayed as dumb in TV shows, for example. However we cannot equate men's and women's experiences of the world we live in. I want to, and have the mistake of doing so many times, but I've since seen how wrong I've been. My female friend told me the following which radically transformed my perspective Ask any group of women "What do you do to protect yourself in your daily life?" Dome typical answers - never walk alone at night - hold car keys out while walking to car so you can open car door quickly - do not make eye contact or smile to strangers at night - do not go to bars or clubs alone - carry money in bra in case bag is taken - never put down your drink - the list goes on and on Women's life experiences are thus characterized by a constant and unending fear of sexual assault. When you ask men the same question---to list what they do to protect themselves in their daily life... --> the answer is just about nothing. We men walk around like we own urban environments. We have very little to lose and we have a lot of fun with it all. However we have a major bias that we need to be aware of: women are raised to be in constant fear, a fear they don't share with us. This has tremendous implications throughout life. Also this is only one example of a difference in life experience between men and women. There are of course many more.

danso 14y ago
Great points. Just had to say: I've heard that holding car keys at the ready is also intended as a impromptu sharp weapon to an attacker's face/eyes. Which only underscores your general point
- Ixiaus 14y ago
  That actually is the reason why you hold your car keys. It's less of a "being able to get in the car quickly" and more about being able to "gouge their eye out".
sigmaxipi 14y ago
>Women's life experiences are thus characterized by a constant and unending fear of sexual assault. >When you ask men the same question---to list what they do to protect themselves in their daily life... --> the answer is just about nothing. Why is this fear a bad thing for women? Interesting fact: men are more likely to be victims of violent crime[1] and this has been pretty much true throughout history[2] though it is getting better. That fear is probably quite useful in keeping them alive since women are only half as likely to be victims of assaults by strangers[3] [1] http://web.archive.org/web/20060926004448/http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/glance/vsx2.htm http://web.archive.org/web/20060926004448/http://www.ojp.usd... [2] http://www.ted.com/talks/steven_pinker_on_the_myth_of_violence.html http://www.ted.com/talks/steven_pinker_on_the_myth_of_violen... [3] http://web.archive.org/web/20060927115258/http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/pub/ascii/sdvv.txt http://web.archive.org/web/20060927115258/http://www.ojp.usd...

awakeasleep 14y ago

Wow. What a killer article. I think it went pretty far in depth, and I let myself take the time to imagine everything the author was describing, and I fuckin felt it man. If this was written by a man, I applaud the effort you put into empathizing with women. If it was written by a woman, Thank you for thinking up so many creative and kick ass examples. Our society has a long way to go before we reach equality. And I fucking PRAY it happens with greater reverence for sex in general, instead of applying to crude commercialized form of sexuality to both genders. I've been noticing people using sexuality in a manipulative and threatening way at work a bunch lately, and it fucking sucks. If anyone out there has trouble socializing, and wants to know a good way to do it: Share your feelings with a girl in private, and start off small. Yeah it makes you vulnerable but that is an essential part of real love. DO NOT make sexual comments in front of other people.

tomp 14y ago
> Our society has a long way to go before we reach equality. Why is there such a strong emphasis on equality? In Slovenian, we have two similar words, of which one means "equality", and the other means roughly "equal rights". I'm always annoyed when the former is stated as a goal, instead of the latter. We're not equal, and never will be. For example, men don't have to bear children, they don't need a "paternal leave" (where it's available, it's a nice bonus, but it shouldn't be introduced/mandatory at the expense of the maternal leave). Another apparent difference between the sexes is the different priorities in the choice of mate. I'm sure that the bigger emphasis assigned by man to the visual appearance of women is partially based in our culture, but also partially based in our biology. Sure, sexual comments at the workplace are inappropriate, but I'm never going to seek excuses for my preference for seeing sexy women in ads (btw, another gender bias used in ads, but rarely mentioned, even by the most fierce proponents of "equality": if a person is implied to be socially awkward/stupid/taken advantage of, it's almost always a man). There is, however, one area where men and women are mostly equal: the advantages in life that the alpha members of each sex are awarded with (the meaning of alpha differ between the genders: in women, it's mostly looks, in men, it's fame, power, money, fitness/lookss (not necessarily in this order)).
- 14y ago

lucisferre 14y ago

The comments here so far are mind bogglingly stupid. It's intended as a satire, simple as that. Try not to over think it guys.

cwp 14y ago
Satire, huh? So by telling a story of sexism with the genders reversed, the author is slyly poking fun at all the fuss about sexism in tech that we've been hearing lately, and showing us how ridiculous it all is. That's an interesting take, 'cause I sure didn't read it that way. To me it seems more like a straight put-yourself-in-her-shoes appeal to empathy for women who brave the tech industry.
- benmccann 14y ago
  Isn't this more a story of sexualization and objectification than sexism? It was an interesting read to empathize with the uncomfortableness of the situation, but the sexualization stood out to me far more sexism.
- lucisferre 14y ago
  > To me it seems more like a straight put-yourself-in-her-shoes appeal to empathy for women who brave the tech industry. Yes, done as satire...

kitsune_ 14y ago

Is this a rant? I'm confused.

sasha-dv 14y ago

Just what women need! Another middle-aged white man fighting for the women's rights. It's condescending. It's just a step away from "A Gay Girl in Damascus".

dgabriel 14y ago
I respectfully disagree.
- sasha-dv 14y ago
  Can you elaborate on that?
ericabiz 14y ago
Hi, I have no idea if you are a woman or a man, but as a woman in tech, I feel compelled to reply. I appreciated this story. Not so much the comments attached to it on HN, but the story itself. If it got some guys thinking about how they would feel if this happened: "You don't look like a programmer! When did you get into computers? That's kinda hot..." Which has happened to me so many times I've lost count...usually followed closely by "Are you single?" If it gets guys to stop saying THAT...then it was well worth the whole thing.
- yummyfajitas 14y ago
  Many people tell me I don't seem like a programmer, and quite a few are surprised to discover I went to college or do non-manual labor. There is just something about my personality that suggests to people I'm not a knowledge worker, unless the topic comes up in conversation. They have heuristics, priors and reasoning which lead them to correct results most of the time. Maybe they are even irrational and have a sucky predictor. I know how I feel about this - meh. Incidentally, why do you feel that being found attractive is a problem? And is this also a problem in fields with 50% women?
- randomdata 14y ago
  I am male and have received the "you don't look like a programmer" comment on numerous occasions. It usually comes from other men, so it's not typically followed by the "are you single?" question. Is it the latter that makes you uncomfortable? To be brutally honest, I find that kind of question rather flattering. Another one I frequently hear: I farm as a hobby. When I meet someone and talk about my farming adventures first, then tell them I also develop software, they are always like "Whoa, you know how to program computers? But you are a farmer!" like a farmer isn't smart enough to do that kind of work. Personally, I think it is funny knowing that farming is the one that is far more mentally challenging out of the two, but it really could be hurtful if directed at the wrong person.

michaelochurch 14y ago

My boss (the senior dev) is a Dragon Girl Targaryens everywhere!

robconery 14y ago
LOL the image I was going to use in the header was Daenaerys - but thought it went a bit too far. PJ Harvey is a hero, so I decided she should sit atop the post.

scotty79 14y ago

OP could make his statement much stronger if he wrote the whole piece from perspective of bit asexual straight man working in environment dominated by gay men who would introduce in daily worklife all kinds of innuendos often forgetting that protagonist is not interested in them and also not very interested in sexual layer of human interaction. I think the innate homophoby of the readers could help them to better understand.

JanezStupar 14y ago
There is no need to be a slightly asexual man in gay men environment. It is quite enough that you are a man in a mostly female environment. When a woman approaches you and you turn her down then strange shit starts happening.
- scotty79 14y ago
  Maybe but most of target audience of such story doesn't have first hand experience of working in mostly female environment and while reading about it they would imagine happyland of pure bliss with a bit of thrill. I think straight men have similar level of uneasiness about gay men as women about straight men. Mostly safe despite all the silly stuff but...
yummyfajitas 14y ago
Yes, lets read an article by a straight man about how the gays kept him out of the fashion industry by finding him attractive and behaving effeminately. Then lets try to take it even half as seriously as articles about how those geeks keep women out of tech by finding them attractive and behaving nerdily.
- banter 14y ago
  You do realize that there are plenty of gay men in the tech industry, don't you? You also know that "behaving effeminately" is not characteristic of all homosexual men, right? Consider, instead, a tech environment dominated by gay men and the article is about, as you put it, "how those geeks keep men out of tech by finding them attractive and behaving nerdily." Scotty79 may be onto more than is immediately obvious, and you do his idea a disservice to dismiss it so quickly. In the OP's article, the victim of the gender-based injustices writes that he wrongly thought he had left the harassment and the immaturity of others behind him--back in high school and college. I'm almost certain, however, that many gays, of any gender and in any industry, feel the same way when they have to deal with their coworkers saying things like "that's gay," "no homo," "don't be a fag, man," and for the gay men in particular, "don't be a pussy," "stop acting like a bitch," "quit acting like a girl," etc. It's quite obvious, too, that the misogyny carries over when men are criticized for "behaving effeminately," as if there could possibly be an absolute definition of femininity and that it is wrong for men to approach it, even slightly.[1] As mentioned earlier, Scotty's suggestion was not about imagining the struggles of a straight man trying to break into a typically 'gay' industry; it was about writing from the perspective of a "straight man working in [an] environment dominated by gay men." That is, any environment (the tech industry, in our case) which is hypothetically dominated by homosexual men in a way similar to the female dominance found in the OP's article. The main difference between the two posts would be that, as per Scotty's suggestion, the story's protagonist would be the sexual target of other men--giving a, perhaps, more faithful glimpse into the tech world women have to deal with every day. The OP's hypothetical role-reversal throughout the entire world and history, while somehow still attributing the same brutish machismo to those running things, is an interesting change indeed, but it depends quite heavily on the reader's willing suspension of disbelief. At any rate, I'm glad Rob took the time to write "Men in Tech." I was really worried, for a moment at the start, that the narrative would turn into one of those, "men can hypothetically deal with this type of harassment, why can't you?" I'm so glad it didn't. 1. It's worth reading Michael S Kimmel's "Masculinity as Homophobia," since it discusses how men fear being 'unmasked' as either gay or effeminate, and so overcompensate by emphasizing the perceived homosexuality or effeminacy of others. http://www.stthomas.edu/diversity/files/Masculinity_as_Homop.pdf http://www.stthomas.edu/diversity/files/Masculinity_as_Homop... http://faculty.ucc.edu/psysoc-stokes/Masculinity.pdf http://faculty.ucc.edu/psysoc-stokes/Masculinity.pdf

deleted 14y ago

[deleted]

emgreen 14y ago

I like this as an exercise in empathy. It's important to consider how we treat the "odd ones out" in any group. Maybe we're on snowboarding holiday with friends who are all mad keen boarders, except for one who's never seen snow before, we'd probably adjust our behaviour and hang out on the baby slopes a bit and help out our friend. Or maybe we're organising a work party, and it would normally be a slightly boozy affair in a bar, but we know someone doesn't drink because they're pregnant/alcoholic/religious/don't like it/training for a marathon, so we might do something a bit different, like take everyone for a bbq on the beach. Maybe we own a cafe, and there's a step out the front, we might get a ramp ready, so that if someone in a wheelchair wants to visit they can get in okay. For whatever reason, at the moment, being a female in tech means you're an "odd one out". The lack of women in tech is not the men in tech's fault, (the men in tech are mostly pretty lovely, certainly I like working with them). The lack of women is no-one's fault, the reasons run deep and are complicated. It's also not a terrible experience being a women in tech, it's a good job. I guess the worse you can say is that it's hard to be different to everyone around you. And let's face it women haven't got the monopoly on that, we all know what that feels like. It's not really about gender, I'm sure there's many men who feel excluded by the whole "brogrammer" thing too. Sometimes the discourse around the whole "women in tech" thing makes me scared, I feel like it's stirring people to feel accused or hurt or angry or confused, and causing them to divide. It shouldn't really be about women, it doesn't even make sense, we're half of humanity for goodness sake, 3.4 x 10^9 very separate people, why consider us to be such a coherent group? It should be about trying to understand those around us as individuals, who are not necessarilly the same as us, and seeing if there's any small adjustments or accommodations we could make so that they can be themselves, and also a part of our group. And we should be doing this, just because it's right, and that's the sort of world we want to live in.

Ixiaus 14y ago
The problem though, is empathy is going to be really hard for men -> women or women -> men; both sexes are remarkably different culturally. What you see is a large number of socially awkward and inept people flocking to industries where being socially tact is less valued over intellectual prowess. Women have always been more socially tactful than men - it's how our society is set up, women are treated as a valued commodity. If you want a "close" approximation of figuring out what it's like to be the other gender in a "x dominated field", you should go the route of the author of this book: http://www.amazon.com/Self-Made-Man-Womans-Journey-Manhood/dp/0670034665 http://www.amazon.com/Self-Made-Man-Womans-Journey-Manhood/d... She did a remarkable job of actually experiencing what being a man in our society is like. I would be very interested if someone of the male sex were to do something similar and write a book about it, this article doesn't cut it IMHO.

jeffio 14y ago

I see what you did there.

icebraining 14y ago

It doesn't work for me; I can't imagine an entire field of women acting like that.

Craiggybear 14y ago

I was trained to program (Assembly language) twenty five years ago -- by a woman. There were a lot of female software engineers/programmers then and no one even commented on it. My stepfather (an electronics and heavy power engineer) had a very stylish and beautiful lady colleague at Westinghouse and she was a senior engineering lead -- that was more than 35 years ago. I also know lots of male gay engineers and programmers and no one thinks this worthy of comment either. No one paid attention to this female programmer thing until relatively recently, I've found. The past really is a different country.

NotMyMorals 14y ago

Have to admit I don't really care if there are fewer women in tech, or if they feel uncomfortable in a boy's club, and don't see any reason why we should have to change to make them feel better. Just because "sexism" is against your moral code doesn't mean it's against mine. The old joke is true - to avoid sexual harassment accusations: 1) be attractive, 2) don't be unattractive. I've dated plenty of women at work, flirt all the time, and no one has ever accused me of "harassment" or "sexism." My boss lady caught me checking out her ass once, the next few weeks she wore short skirts and made sure to walk by my desk. It was great.

captainsaveaho 14y ago
Are you hiring?

bdg 14y ago

I don't really like my neighbours, so I get changed with the blinds open. It's different when you're a man.

captainsaveaho 14y ago

Wait... Rob can afford a car? I thought he had to ride to work on a paddle board? And I'm also going to call BS on his bulging pecs and biceps. I bet he couldn't even bench the bar for 10 reps.

yelsgib 14y ago

Try reading this with a sense of wonder, rather than as a heavy piece of social commentary.

chriskolenko 14y ago

I think the next time I meet a feminist I'm going to punch her in the face and say you're welcome. They sh!t me, and I don't want to discriminate because she's a girl. Why do people think women should be treated exactly the same as men? Soon as people realise biology makes the sexs different we can use this knowledge to our advantage. Women are better than men in ways and men are better than women in ways. In any environment you need to know the strengths and weaknesses of your team to know exactly how to make it run at its full potential. I'm over girls complaining about being discriminated against. If you don't like the pay or the environment you work in leave! You have a choice. It's exactly like watching a bad tv show. There is no point going on twitter or your blog saying how bad it is. You've just given the show 1 viewer plus free marketing. The only way to get the show cancelled is to stop watching. The point I'm trying to make is. Stop trying to make me feel bad for you because I don't. Leave your job until you find one you like with no discrimination and if all the girls who felt discriminated against did this there would be no discrimination. I get discriminated against because of my age. I'm 26 and for the last couple of years I've been a senior developer. It's hard for me to get a job because people think I'm too young for the position. When in fact I've spent more time coding then a 30 year old. Hirers don't count hours after 5pm aparently. I can tell you what I didn't do. I didn't write a blog having a cry over it. One last thing, most of the girls I've meet over the years always say they want to be treated like men. But why do they get so happy when you open a door for them? No chick has ever opened my door. It just seems like they want the best of both worlds.